Battery Charging

evnow said:

All Nissan dealers apparently will have some chargers - that might be a good way to charge on the go.

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I never thought of that. A Nissan dealer has to have a way of sending out your new Nissan with a full tank, so why not make their chargers available to Leaf owners. Good thinking!!

I'm sure they will let you use the charger, assuming they don't have a Leaf they have to get out for delivery today... you might have to wait a bit, but I'm sure most would find a way to squeeze you in.

An important feature of this "new" charging network is that each charger will report its status in real time, and your Leaf will have access to that information.

The GPS-Nav map should show the stations, and if the individual pumps are "available", "busy charging", down for service, etc.

This single feature will allow us a BIG step forward in the convenient use of EVs.

Now, can we put in a "reservation" (or intention to arrive in N minutes) for a charge?

Does the Leaf have a setting, before we start charging, to only charge "this much", to improve the throughput in the line waiting for the charger?

In fact is there "one line" marked out, for cars to wait for the next available charger?
The database should also show the number waiting, expected wait time, or some such, right?

Or, needing only a 5-minute Quick-Charge to get home, do I get stuck behind the one car with a 2x battery doing a one-hour full fill-up?

Some study of the layout, service times, and queues would seem to be a good thing.

One isolated station, showing busy or available now, does not say enough about what I might find when I arrive about 10 minutes later.
Probably they expect low utilization at first, but the physical layout now might be important for better access later.

Seeing that the station is available right now, but that there are 4 cars in line and 3 others expected to arrive before you ... would be helpful to know before you push your own "I'm headed there" button.

A small article on the 'swapping' versus charging debate


http://industry.bnet.com/auto/10004759/fast-charging-vs-battery-swapping-a-battle-royal/

garygid said:

An important feature of this "new" charging network is that each charger will report its status in real time, and your Leaf will have access to that information.

The GPS-Nav map should show the stations, and if the individual pumps are "available", "busy charging", down for service, etc.

This single feature will allow us a BIG step forward in the convenient use of EVs.

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Gary...

I like this idea. If the charging staion knew how many cars were in line AND it knew the state of charge for each vehicle in line AND the drivers made an input something like "I plan to charge to XX% at this charging station" then it would be very easy to figure out how long your wait would be.

How nice woule THAT be? "Charging station at Main St. has 3 vehicles in line, however vehicle #3 is expected to vacate the charger in 15 minutes" You can pick and choose where you went for a quick charge based on all the above info. Obviously very fluid info based on driver input etc., but the idea is there.

More important than the details of the idea is that the hardware components being included in the systen now will be sufficient to be able to support building the idea later.

Apparently the Leaf will be able to get real-time data. Sending real-time data is apparently possible during charging, or to "request" the download of appropriately localized charging-station data.
So, two-way at the car end is there.

The other part is two-way communication at the station.
It can send its status out. But does it need to get (will it accept) commands or data inbound (other than to get charging-subscription card or credit card authorizations)?

Would one swipe a subscription card or credit card upon entering the line? Perhaps awkward.

Better, just read the driver's RFID?

Or, if the line extends off the property onto the street, would the driver just press the "I've entered the Queue" button (after specifying "N" edies for a partial fill, or "F" and the car computes the nunber of edies needed).

Then, your car's system would know enough to calculate the route and expexted time of your arrival, determine the expexted wait time at the station considering those in line and those likely to arrive before you do, and display a number of minutes of estimated wait right "in" the icon on the map. Of course, busy stations with no expexted wait could be yellow where the time-committed estimate would show, the red stations would show the estimared wait time, and green would be available now.

An indication of the number of usable stations of each level (type 1, 2, 3) should also be indicated, with the car taking into account the charging capabilities that the car has (modified by those the driver wants to consider using).

Instead of a "gas station", will this be a "edie station", a sub-station (subscription), or ... "e-up"?

mitch672 said:

I'm sure they will let you use the charger, assuming they don't have a Leaf they have to get out for delivery today... you might have to wait a bit, but I'm sure most would find a way to squeeze you in.

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I think this is a pretty big assumption. You are assuming that the charger will be accessible from outside the service area, or that the dealer will be willing to allow you the use of a service bay just for charging. And you are assuming that the dealer will be willing to devote personnel to charging cars. And you are assuming that you can count on availability when you need it.

Other replies above branch into fantasy, in which charging stations are capable of maintaining a waiting list and a reservation system, and drivers plan exactly when they will arrive at a station and actually arrive when they say they will. And what happens if you plan a trip on which you will need to charge and it's a nice day so everyone is out and about and the wait is three hours? Imagine the fights that would arise when Joe reserves a charger for 3:15 but does not arrive until 3:16 and meanwhile George arrives and plugs in! Joe invokes his reservation while George says he was there first. Or when Joe reserves a spot in line and then tries to get in front of George, who arrived before Joe but without a reservation! Now situate this in Los Angeles, where people shoot each other on the freeway for perceived aggressive driving.

Consider the present system with gas cars: We do not rely on a sophisticated system of reservations and advance planning. We rely on a system in which there are so many gas pumps that only when the supply of gasoline is stopped are there lines. It's strictly first-come first-served. Similarly, we need to have enough charging stations (and sufficient grid capacity) that there are always open stations available.

There are things which are possible but which are not practical, and the system of high-level communications at the chargers, and reservations, and driver planning suggested above is not practical, given the hardware needed and the human factor. If I can get a Leaf (which now seems doubtful if the initial roll-out is not state-wide) I'll be charging at home. I may plug into a public charger just so the public can see that the chargers are useful, but I will not assume I can drive more than 100 miles until there are so many chargers that there are always some vacant. And this time will come. The chargers will be built as electric cars are sold, and as the numbers of cars rise, more and more businesses will install chargers for the profit of selling electricity and to attract customers ("Charge while you shop.")

daniel, I do think that many Nissan dealers will probably install a charger outdoors, for the very purpose of convience to their Leaf customers, it's an inexpensive PR move, more than anything else. Most would only plug in for an hour or so, just to get some charge to get home, also most car dealers do not have 480V 3 phase power, so they will be the same Level 2 chargers we have at home, more than likely... I would expect very few dealers to have 480V, let alone want to shell out $50K for a Level 3 charger.

Public infrastructure will come in time, but it will take a few years, probably by 2014-2015 we will be in better shape, and by then I would expect several commercial fast charginf stations to open as well.

you should read the document on this site, if you havn't seen it yet.

http://www.electrificationcoalition.org/electrification-roadmap.php

daniel said:

Other replies above branch into fantasy, in which charging stations are capable of maintaining a waiting list and a reservation system, and drivers plan exactly when they will arrive at a station and actually arrive when they say they will. And what happens if you plan a trip on which you will need to charge and it's a nice day so everyone is out and about and the wait is three hours? Imagine the fights that would arise when Joe reserves a charger for 3:15 but does not arrive until 3:16 and meanwhile George arrives and plugs in! Joe invokes his reservation while George says he was there first. Or when Joe reserves a spot in line and then tries to get in front of George, who arrived before Joe but without a reservation! Now situate this in Los Angeles, where people shoot each other on the freeway for perceived aggressive driving.

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Daniel...

I think you are missing my point about what is possible. By sending in a 'reservation' you're merely telling the system I plan to travel from my present location straight to charger X and then charge up to X% of my battery. That is merely informational to the entire system so that other displays can react accordingly. No reservation would be a promise of charge access or anything else. But if I'm 20 minutes away from charging station X, and there are 5 people 15 minutes away or less who tell the system they will be at the charger (lets say) 20 minutes each and there are only 2 charger ports, MY GPS could tell me "go ahead to charger X, but you can expect a possible 40 minute wait just to get a charge.". I might go to charger Y in that case. Nothing is set in stone, but the system could utilize all available information to give the status (and PREDICTED staus) of any given charging point.

I don't see this as fantasy, I see this as a logical extension of what can be done with the information available.

Haven't you ever been put on hold and heard "The average wait time is 12 minutes" so you hang up and call back later? That little nugget of information is useful, isn't it? Same thing applied here.

Right, Jimmy, the "estimation" system could be built easily, assuming that the required communication electronics is not omitted from the station, or some patent-holder prohibits the next EV maker from participating. It does not even require Karen to implement it, even I could do it.

We are so overbuilt with gas stations, and fill-ups are so fast, that concentional fueling is rarely of any concern.

I suspect it will be a long while before the same can be said for e-fueling.

Initially the "trivial use" of the EV is simple: limit range and e-fuel at home overnight. The next step is employer-backed Level-2 e-fueling during the day at work.

Next, the more "adventurous" use of the EV will depend upon en-route recharging, initially punctuating the trip rather dramatically. Yes, planning and patience will be required, but the very-doable information system will help considerably.

Good charge-point information, fed into Karen's Trip-Planning & EV Performance Modeling programs, would be quite a useful tool as we set out on the journey to make EVs commonplace, and "get off" oil.

Yes, we do need to quit using oil, I believe that the only "real" debate is over the timing.

KarenRei said:

Level 3 is 480VAC

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Level III is also 0-600V direct current and it appears that's what the Leafs will use.

Nissan's docs have consistently shown and listed DC level III in images and text
They use TEPCO chargers in Japan which is a DC method
The are part of the CHAdeMO association
-- headed by the boss of Tokyo Electric Power
-- has the goal of making the TEPCO charger the world quick charge standard
US power companies and charger manufacturers have signed-on with CHAdeMO



Anything can happen, but there's a LOT of momentum behind DC quick charging.

Andy

Any box on your garage wall that goes into the level 1/2 port is not a charger, it's a smart junction box that supplies ac to the internal charger. The industry is confusing the public with such inaccurate and redundant terms. The lever 3 port accepts dc from an actual charger external to the car. If Nissan only supplies a 3.3kw charger inboard that will be quite weak for a vehicle with a pack of this size, making opportunity charging not much of an opportunity. I'm sure this was a cost cutting measure.

We have heard rumors of later production Leafs have a 6.6KW charger on board (double the initial size), older Leafs may also be upgradeable to the new / additional charger. That would help out a bit. I saw where the J1772 standard can handle up to 16.8KW, so there are possibilities in the future for larger/faster chargers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

EVDRIVER said:

Any box on your garage wall that goes into the level 1/2 port is not a charger, it's a smart junction box that supplies ac to the internal charger. The industry is confusing the public with such inaccurate and redundant terms.

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Maybe that's why 'the industry' calls the 'box on the wall' "Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE)" rather than 'charger'?

EVDRIVER said:

The lever 3 port accepts dc from an actual charger external to the car. If Nissan only supplies a 3.3kw charger inboard that will be quite weak for a vehicle with a pack of this size, making opportunity charging not much of an opportunity. I'm sure this was a cost cutting measure.

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Consumers like things to expand but get upset when it contracts. How would you feel if Nissan quoted an 8-hour recharge, then increased battery size? More battery and more miles driven would also mean a longer charge time - a bit of info that might be a 'negative' to the 'glass half empty' crowd.

There are rumors that the 2012 cars might have longer range - presumably from a larger pack...that will need a larger 'charger pipe' to feed it in 8 hours. Maybe it would be a great move on Nissan's part to move to the 6.6KW Level 2 charger when they move to a larger pack?

AndyH said:

EVDRIVER said:

Any box on your garage wall that goes into the level 1/2 port is not a charger, it's a smart junction box that supplies ac to the internal charger. The industry is confusing the public with such inaccurate and redundant terms.

Click to expand...

Maybe that's why 'the industry' calls the 'box on the wall' "Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE)" rather than 'charger'?

EVDRIVER said:

The lever 3 port accepts dc from an actual charger external to the car. If Nissan only supplies a 3.3kw charger inboard that will be quite weak for a vehicle with a pack of this size, making opportunity charging not much of an opportunity. I'm sure this was a cost cutting measure.

Click to expand...

Consumers like things to expand but get upset when it contracts. How would you feel if Nissan quoted an 8-hour recharge, then increased battery size? More battery and more miles driven would also mean a longer charge time - a bit of info that might be a 'negative' to the 'glass half empty' crowd.

There are rumors that the 2012 cars might have longer range - presumable from a larger pack...that will need a larger 'charger pipe' to feed it in 8 hours. Maybe it would be a great move on Nissan's part to move to the 6.6KW Level 2 charger when they move to a larger pack?

Click to expand...

Check around, most press, blogs, articles, and even MFGs, etc call these boxes chargers or charging stations. Charging station is appropriate but not "charger" as there in no charger in the overpriced box. We know that's wrong but they should know better. I really hope the Leaf has 6.6kw charging as I would consider that a minimum for a vehicle of this caliber and back size, 3.3kw is frankly "weak" in more than one sense. Even 25A @ 240 is 6kw, come on Nissan. If I take some longer trips I'm not going to wait all night to charge. All my EVs had at least 4.8kw chargers or greater, even conversions. At least make it an option out the gate..

EVDRIVER said:

Check around, most press, blogs, articles, and even MFGs, etc call these boxes chargers or charging stations.

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I feel your pain! That's one of the reasons for miscommunication between 'engineer' types and 'technician' or 'public' types. Just another example of why a paper with 'Nissan' printed on it is likely more accurate than someone on a blog, wiki, or forum... (including me! )

Andy

mitch672 said:

daniel, I do think that many Nissan dealers will probably install a charger outdoors, for the very purpose of convience to their Leaf customers, it's an inexpensive PR move, more than anything else. Most would only plug in for an hour or so...

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So the second person to arrive, hoping for an hour's charge to get home, will have to wait two hours, and the third person will have to wait three hours... etc.

I am sure we will see a charging infrastructure built. And these first stations are a needed first step. But early adopters will not be able to count on getting an opportunity charge when they want it, which is why I drive the stinker if I plan on driving farther than my EV's range. Right now that's about 35 miles. If I can get a Leaf, it increases to about 80 miles (I always leave a buffer).

Jimmydreams said:

Daniel...

I think you are missing my point about what is possible. By sending in a 'reservation' you're merely telling the system I plan to travel from my present location straight to charger X and then charge up to X% of my battery. That is merely informational to the entire system so that other displays can react accordingly...

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You are now assuming that people will log on and tell the system that they intend to stop in for a charge. A few people like you will do so. The great majority of ordinary people will not. If they don't need a reservation, or the system does not accept confirmed reservations, they'll just go there and plug in.

Your telephone analogy is flawed because the phone system knows how many people are on hold. The charger will only know how many people have logged on to say they are coming. And I still believe that by the time the technology you describe could be put in place, there will be an adequate number of charge stations available that it won't be needed.

daniel said:

mitch672 said:

The chargers will be built as electric cars are sold, and as the numbers of cars rise, more and more businesses will install chargers for the profit of selling electricity and to attract customers ("Charge while you shop.")

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Daniel and Mitch...First of all, chargers will be installed BEFORE the LEAF is sold...there will be over a thousand of these in each of the five rollout states, with about 50 of those planned to be 'fast' chargers. I also read and heard that at the beginning, there will be no charge for charging at public stations. The electric companies are the ONLY ones allowed to charge for electricity, so later, the charging companies will probably charge for the space.

leaffan said:

daniel said:

mitch672 said:

The chargers will be built as electric cars are sold, and as the numbers of cars rise, more and more businesses will install chargers for the profit of selling electricity and to attract customers ("Charge while you shop.")

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Daniel and Mitch...First of all, chargers will be installed BEFORE the LEAF is sold...there will be over a thousand of these in each of the five rollout states, with about 50 of those planned to be 'fast' chargers. I also read and heard that at the beginning, there will be no charge for charging at public stations. The electric companies are the ONLY ones allowed to charge for electricity, so later, the charging companies will probably charge for the space.

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That is only is the 10 cities "The EV Project" is involved in. The vast majority of the country will get nothing. The EV Project has a 99.8 million $ grant to do this. In the rest of the country, A few companies will install chargers (I expect the more progresive companies like Walmart or COSTCO to do this), there will be a handful here and there, but nothing like what is going on out West, that will take YEARS to happen in most of the country.