Official California SDG&E Thread

drees said:

I think your price / kWh must be a type-o. Max residential rate for SDG&E is $0.31/kWh at Tier 4 in the summer - basically same as TOU peak rates on the EV-TOU plan or the Experimental "X" rate.

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Oops, you're right, Dave--my tier 4 rate is indeed $0.31/kWh. I'll edit my post.

thx,
TT

ttweed said:

Without PV, there is no question in my mind that you want a separate meter and TOU for the Leaf, regardless of which experimental rate you are assigned.

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I agree with you. Assuming you had a separate meter, my point was that, because there will be times when you are going to charge other than between midnight and five in the morning, what you end up paying on the X rate and the Z rates aren't going to be as large (though still there) as people expect when just comparing the super off-peak rates.

I also agree with your observation about the those having a PV system. I suspect most people with a PV system near the coast would be better off using EV-TOU-2 than any of the experimental rates.

SanDust said:

I also agree with your observation about the those having a PV system. I suspect most people with a PV system near the coast would be better off using EV-TOU-2 than any of the experimental rates.

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Seeing as how I'm one of those folks, I've wondered that, too. I have the second meter and a PV system that keeps us--on average, through the year--somewhere around Tier 1-2.

There have been discussions elsewhere on the board about the wisdom of folks like me switching to DR-SES, or, now, EV-TOU-2.

If you're over-generating, or if you're barely into tier 1 year 'round, seems like those would be fine options.

However, in our case, we over-generate only a few months--last year only two--so it's not clear that the amount we overproduce at the high rate would offset our usage at night, especially when you add charging the LEAF (I'm thinking it would cover our night-time usage, but maybe not). The LEAF would charge at a rate that's about .05/kWh more that what we're paying now with the second meter, year 'round--and in winter, no question that that would be on every kWh consumed, and, as I point out, likely so in summer, too.

What I really wish is that the now departing Google Power Meter worked with net metering; I would've had the data to actually figure it out. But it didn't and now it won't.

However, in one call to SDG&E about if/when it might work, the CS person told me SDG&E was working on possibly supplying their own such data reporting system for net metering customers--so maybe I'll get that data some day. Especially good if I got at least a year's data before the EV rate study ends.

lonndoggie said:

What I really wish is that the now departing Google Power Meter worked with net metering; I would've had the data to actually figure it out. But it didn't and now it won't.

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I noticed that after I got my 2nd meter installed for EV, I am now able to access TOU data through the SDG&E EnergyWave site (note that it uses a self-signed SSL certificate so you'll get a browser warning).

It has TOU data on 15 minute increments for the EV meter. The NET/main meter has 2 channels (A/B) - one for energy pulled in (A), another for energy pushed out (B).

I do wonder about the accuracy - the data is rounded to 0.1 kWh / 15 min interval which is the equivalent of 400W. I hope the actual billing is far more accurate than that.

EnergyWave?!?! Wow, that must be the new service they'd hinted at! Looking at it now...

EDIT: It's rejecting my attempts to add our main meter, but I've added the PV meter. However, the data so far only goes up to June 15th, which is the day before we got the LEAF, so the data's pretty sparse!

I'll have to call and see what's up with the house meter.

Thanks for pointing this out!

EDIT 2: I'm in with the house meter. It got swapped out at the same time the EV meter got put in, and when I went online to get my info SDGE, when I looked at my most recent bill, it was an old corrected bill, not the most current bill, so I got the old meter number, and it won't let you register with that (even though it shows data for it).

lonndoggie said:

EnergyWave?!?! Wow, that must be the new service they'd hinted at! Looking at it now...

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It's been around for a while, but hasn't given me any TOU data until I got these new GE meters when my EV meter was installed...

lonndoggie said:

There have been discussions elsewhere on the board about the wisdom of folks like me switching to DR-SES, or, now, EV-TOU-2.

If you're over-generating, or if you're barely into tier 1 year 'round, seems like those would be fine options.

However, in our case, we over-generate only a few months--last year only two--so it's not clear that the amount we overproduce at the high rate would offset our usage at night, especially when you add charging the LEAF (I'm thinking it would cover our night-time usage, but maybe not).

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If you're producing more than you are using between noon and six then it's hard to imagine that the increased rate you get paid for electricity produced during this period won't more than offset the slightly higher premium you pay over the base DR rate. On the EV-TOU plan you're getting a 65% premium over the average of the other two rates and those two base rates are only about 12.5% more than what you'd pay for the base DR. That's more than a 5:1 advantage.

Just try one day. Say you use 20 kWh on this day and you also use 20 kWh spread equally out over the day. On straight DR net metering you'd net out to zero. But on EV-TOU-2 you come out better. If production was 20 kWh about 13 kWh of that would be during the hours of noon and six and you'd net 8 kWh for a credit of $1.80. The other 7 kWh of production from 6:00 AM to noon would net you 2 kWh and a credit of $.33. Combining the two credits and you could buy 13.7 kWh of power. Since you'd only be needing to buy 10 kWh you'd now have a credit.

If you want to get more into the numbers, a reasonable assumption is that your PV system will produce 56% of total production at peak summer, 28% at peak winter, and the rest at off peak. But the big deal is how much you consume during the peak hours in summer.

One thing making this easier is that there is little difference between the "X" rate and EV-TOU-2 so you can actually not even include charging the Leaf when doing the calculations. All you have to look at is your household usage.

SanDust said:

If you're producing more than you are using between noon and six then it's hard to imagine that the increased rate you get paid for electricity produced during this period won't more than offset the slightly higher premium you pay over the base DR rate.

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The only way it wouldn't work out is if we use so much juice at night that it chews up the credit and we end up with net kWh at that rate beyond the tier 1 rate--assuming we'd stayed in tier 1 with the DR rate. Looking back a couple of months, we paid a total rate of $.13863 for tier 1, and that's all we had, 203kWh of which (what's the baseline, 300?). That tier 1 rate is slightly higher than the super off peak rate, but it's lower than the off-peak rate.

Could it happen? Maybe. We run the A/C only in the evening, AKA off-peak. We charge the car at night, and I'd be tempted to run the pool motor (the overwhelming heavyweight when it comes to power consumption) at night.

I also have to admit that most of my prevaricatin' (as Wallace would say to Gromit) was over the DR-SES rates, which are higher overall and less likely to lead to success.

SanDust said:

One thing making this easier is that there is little difference between the "X" rate and EV-TOU-2 so you can actually not even include charging the Leaf when doing the calculations.

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Except I have the lower "Y" rate.

SanDust said:

All you have to look at is your household usage.

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Gee, that's what I said! And, now that I have the data from EnergyWave, I'm figuring it out; got me a Google Docs spreadsheet that I just need to drop the numbers into as they come available, it'll calculate it out for me and I and compare it with what I've paid. Once the study is over, I'll be ready to pick how I want to go forward.

So far, for the data I have for June, I'd be ahead going with EV-TOU-2. I think. I'm assuming that it contains raw numbers from the house meter, which includes the EV meter; can't imagine it'd be otherwise.

But, then again the numbers I have so far don't include any LEAF charges--it only goes up to 6/14, just before we got the car. Odd that it's so far behind.

I got my SDG&E bill for the last couple months over the last couple days after getting the EV meter added to my NEM setup.

However, I noticed that the bill for the first partial month (May-June) with the EV meter did not appear to correctly subtract the Main B meter or the EV meter from the meter reading - instead counting the the Main B meter as my NET meter reading. So over the 5 days of that billing period with the new meters I lost about 60 kWh of generation credit. I used the SDG&E Energy Waves site to verify.

The full month (June-July) with the EV meter appears to be correct.

Anyone else have the same issue? I sent SDG&E a message with the details and my calcs.

drees, did you get an answer on your billing question?

I just got our latest SDG&E bills. Several new twists:

1. Gas and electric used to come in separate envelopes. This time, both were crammed into one.
2. The EV meter is included in the gas bill! There is a note that this is for services provided by the Department of Water Resources. Which seems very wrong.
3. The former EV electricity account seems to have died; the $.85 I'd paid previously for 5 days at $.17/day minimum fee is the only usage shown. However, that also shows in the gas bill.

What's more, I'm being billed for 10kWh for May 7-June 13 (the day before I got my car)--so nothing but the Blink was on that circuit. Seems fishy. The electric service is listed as using the EPEV-Residential rate, but still, I wonder if they think they're billing me for a water pump?

Anyone else's second meter end up like that, billing-wise?

lonndoggie said:

drees, did you get an answer on your billing question?

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Yes, I did. Talked to Matt (EV study guru) and Jennifer (Billing guru) - have one additional question that I'm waiting an answer for but they've been very responsive. Let me know if you want their contact details.

lonndoggie said:

1. Gas and electric used to come in separate envelopes. This time, both were crammed into one.
2. The EV meter is included in the gas bill! There is a note that this is for services provided by the Department of Water Resources. Which seems very wrong.

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My EV bill is combined with my gas bill, too. I believe this is done to keep the net-meter bill separate.

lonndoggie said:

3. The former EV electricity account seems to have died; the $.85 I'd paid previously for 5 days at $.17/day minimum fee is the only usage shown. However, that also shows in the gas bill.

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That seems wrong. My net-meter account has remained separate even though I got a new meter to go with the new EV meter.

lonndoggie said:

What's more, I'm being billed for 10kWh for May 7-June 13 (the day before I got my car)--so nothing but the Blink was on that circuit. Seems fishy. The electric service is listed as using the EPEV-Residential rate, but still, I wonder if they think they're billing me for a water pump?

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Yep, you definitely have something wonky going on.

Dave, I might want the contact info, but I've got an inquiry in; we'll see how that goes.

My call to the basic support line did reveal what you said about the gas and EV bills being combined--that net metering is kept separate, all others come in one bucket. That said, it was very odd that both bills (and the little net metering print-out) all came together in one jam-packed envelope this time!

Also, it appears that I've got the same issue you mentioned--they didn't subtract out the EV meter usage from the main meter. Energy Waves makes that abundantly clear.

What I'd said about the previous charge for the EV meter being included in this bill is OK, I suppose; they also included the $1.01 I'd paid online to cover it (the bill was $.85, but I had to enter at least $1.01), so all's good.

Also...since I've had now two billing cycles (one full one) with no usage of the circuit, I can see that the amounts -- $.85 and $5.44 -- are the minimum charge, $.17/day times the number of days (5 and 32 respectively). However, apparently the billing system tried to make up kWh usage numbers that make sense for that--that first period shows 1kWh of super off-peak, while the second shows 3 peak, 4 off-peak, and 2 super off-peak. Energy Waves shows zero.

So I'm left at this point with curiosities (why does it make up TOU usage numbers?), questions (is Energy Waves reasonably accurate?) and a billing problem (paying for energy pulled thru the EV meter twice).

Anyone else out there with net metering and the second meter? You might want to take a close look at those bills!

My Net Metering bill has been wonky since the EVSE program started.
I seem stuck on "0" for Start and End read values, even though the meter should be racking up (negative) generation credits this time of year.

Note that the A/B/C readings on the meter face are USELESS at best, and misleading.
They do not represent the EPEV time-of-day totals at all. They are based on a different timer set that means nothing.

SDG&E reads the 15-minute interval data from both meters, subtracts the EVSE from House at each interval, and then bins the EVSE consumption into the EPEV time-of-use bands for that bill.

I'm having a hard time tracking my own TOU usage with this methodology. You really do have to read the 15-minute interval data to predict your bill. There is nothing on the meter face to help you.

GroundLoop said:

My Net Metering bill has been wonky since the EVSE program started.
I seem stuck on "0" for Start and End read values, even though the meter should be racking up (negative) generation credits this time of year.

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Yeah, that's another thing I brought up in my inquiry--the start/end readings (for the net meter, not the EVSE) are zero, yet they show the delta they computed via other means.

GroundLoop said:

Note that the A/B/C readings on the meter face are USELESS at best, and misleading.
They do not represent the EPEV time-of-day totals at all. They are based on a different timer set that means nothing.

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Haven't tried to read it, so I've avoided that pratfall.

GroundLoop said:

SDG&E reads the 15-minute interval data from both meters, subtracts the EVSE from House at each interval, and then bins the EVSE consumption into the EPEV time-of-use bands for that bill.

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Sounds OK to me. Except that this first bill with EVSE charges in the mix, I can see that didn't happen (the first part, the subtract; I don't have a bill for the EVSE meter yet where there was actually charging going on).

GroundLoop said:

I'm having a hard time tracking my own TOU usage with this methodology. You really do have to read the 15-minute interval data to predict your bill. There is nothing on the meter face to help you.

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Right, which is what I'm doing, via Energy Waves (https://energywave.sdge.com/), same as Dave. It's pretty easy, once you get the hang of it. Also using it, as mentioned above, to do a whole-year analysis of how moving to EV-TOU-2 would affect my bill.

Having them get that subtraction thing right is going to save me about $18 or so this bill, and more going forward (since this cycle didn't have charging every day).

lonndoggie said:

So I'm left at this point with curiosities (why does it make up TOU usage numbers?), questions (is Energy Waves reasonably accurate?) and a billing problem (paying for energy pulled thru the EV meter twice).

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Energy Waves appears to be pretty accurate. The trick is to make sure you read the proper days. If your meter read dates are July 8 and Aug 8, for example, you should include all interval data from Energy Waves from Jul 9 - Aug 8, from what I understand.

drees said:

Energy Waves appears to be pretty accurate.

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I think/hope so, too. But the support folks have no idea about it, couldn't comment on the accuracy of it...not that that worries me much.

drees said:

The trick is to make sure you read the proper days. If your meter read dates are July 8 and Aug 8, for example, you should include all interval data from Energy Waves from Jul 9 - Aug 8, from what I understand.

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Ah--that probably explains why my numbers for the last billing cycle were about 10kWh higher than SDG&Es.

My SDG&E billing concerns were unfounded. What confused me was getting two bills, one with gas and the EV meter (which is how it will be going forward), and one with just electricity--which I assumed was the house meter. It wasn't, it's the EV meter, for the next billing cycle after the other bill. The numbers were such that its total usage looks very close to the whole house usage plus EV usage, since the house usage was so small thanks to the PV system.

Now, however, I do have to wait for the next house meter bill and see if it's right. Fortunately, due to all the discussion and analysis, I know it's supposed to be for 11kWh--anything else and I'll be back on the phone. But I'm betting that won't have to happen.

Well at least you guys are getting a bill. I haven't received a bill from SDG&E since the May billing period. I've emailed them and called CS twice. Basically EV ToU with net metering appears to have thrown their billing system for a loop. I have a spreadsheet with readings from both meters once a week back to Jan. So I know, within a couple of bucks, what the bill should be. We'll see...

ENIAC said:

Basically EV ToU with net metering appears to have thrown their billing system for a loop.

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EV-TOU-2? That's what I'm looking at after the study period. I'd say "how's that going", but apparently you don't know yet! :?:

ENIAC said:

I have a spreadsheet with readings from both meters once a week back to Jan. So I know, within a couple of bucks, what the bill should be. We'll see...

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Sourced from Energy Waves? Good stuff, that; I wish it had at least one more decimal point of precision, to tens of watt-hours, but it's still the real data.

Good luck, post up when you find out.

lonndoggie said:

EV-TOU-2? That's what I'm looking at after the study period. I'd say "how's that going", but apparently you don't know yet! :?:
Sourced from Energy Waves? Good stuff, that; I wish it had at least one more decimal point of precision, to tens of watt-hours, but it's still the real data.

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Not TOU-2: Break even production + 350 kWh super off-peak = Pay for 350 kWh super off-peak
With TOu-2: Break even production + 350 kWh for charging = Get credit for 100+ kWh super-off peak.

That's a 450 kWh swing. Won't work nearly this well in winter but other than Dec-Jan the winter months is when I end up with the most surplus production. Time will tell but an estimate would be somewhere between $50 and $250 for 4200 kWh.

With EW you can figure out how this would work for you, even without the decimal. FWIW the meter seems to be precise.