life electric motor

I was planning on purchasing 2012 leaf. My main question is the life of the motor. As with all electrical motors they wear out. Any shelf life on this type of motor? 2 nd question how much are the battery cells to replace? the more I look at the engineering aspect of it I am lead to be leave that its a disposable car after 10 years of run time. Please any input would be appreciated. :|

The only thing in the motor that could even conceivable wear out in any reasonable amount of time is the bearings and I suspect even that would be far in to the future. As to the battery, individual cells can be replaced and as to what they cost, by the time you need them many years down the road it is likely they will be far cheaper than they are today...

I suspect that the technology will have changed so much in ten years that even if the car is still performing adequately at that point, you'd likely want to replace it. The same can be said for most vehicles, for that matter...

co2x3 said:

I was planning on purchasing 2012 leaf. My main question is the life of the motor. As with all electrical motors they wear out. Any shelf life on this type of motor? 2 nd question how much are the battery cells to replace? the more I look at the engineering aspect of it I am lead to be leave that its a disposable car after 10 years of run time. Please any input would be appreciated. :|

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co2x3 said:

I was planning on purchasing 2012 leaf. My main question is the life of the motor. As with all electrical motors they wear out. Any shelf life on this type of motor? 2 nd question how much are the battery cells to replace? the more I look at the engineering aspect of it I am lead to be leave that its a disposable car after 10 years of run time. Please any input would be appreciated. :|

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Since the only moving parts on the motor are the bearings, I would say that it will outlast your grandchildren. Nissan uses a three-phase AC synchronous motor instead of a typical DC motor that has brushes that wear out if not maintained (but are usually easily replaceable).

Officially, Nissan does not have a replacement price for the battery pack, however it will not be "broken" after 10 years. Over time, the total capacity of the battery pack will decrease, how much is up for debate, but it isn't like on day 3,650 all of the sudden you can't go anywhere anymore, it's possible that after 10 years the battery pack will have an 80 mile range instead of 100 miles brand new.

I don't think you have to worry about the electric motor. The life of the battery depends entirely on how you use it, and what level of degradation equates with "Time to dispose of this car" for you personally. We've had guesses from 10% to 30% capacity fade over 10 years.

Personally, I'm expecting to keep this car a long time. I take good care of my cars, and expect to renew the pack at least once and drive it for 15 or 20 years. I'll admit that's optimism and determination on my part, though.

Most modern cars are considered disposable after 10 years... The battery is a valid concern, but nobody knows the cost because by the time you need to replace it technology should have advanced to the point where the price is considerably cheaper. As for the motor, I would wager that it will last considerably longer than 10 years, but even when it does go it should be considerably less to replace than a full gasoline engine would be at similar mileage.

Industrial motors like the one used in the Leaf are often used 24/7 and last forever. Few moving parts, no brushes, benign operating environment they should last forever and when they do need maintenance, it will be for simple things like bearings.

i would not worry about the motor either. we had several when i work in box plant that had mean time between failure MTBF ratings anywhere from 500,000 to 750,000 hours which is essentially forever.

as far as battery replacement. i would have to lose a good third of my current capacity before i would consider any repairs. i hope that to be 10 years from now. by then the advent of EV charging (i hope by then all employers will have it which would double my range) should help me put off that decision even longer

Interesting, I have never even thought about motor replacement. To parrot others, not a concern.

Battery? Maybe, but I think that is far enough down the road that I can't be concerned at the moment.

Bill

Didn't somebody report recently that it would cost the customer
about $600 (plus labor) to replace just ONE of the 48 Modules
at a Nissan Dealer (not under warranty)?

So, maybe $60 to $100 real cost per module now
($3000 to $5000 for just the Battery Pack's modules)?

garygid said:

Didn't somebody report recently that it would cost the customer
about $600 (plus labor) to replace just ONE of the 48 Modules
at a Nissan Dealer (not under warranty)?

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Yes, I believe that this number was based on Andy Palmer's interview with the London Times in the wake of the Top Gear stunt earlier this year. In any case, I put this figure into a report I prepared for the September SF BayLEAFs meeting, and perhaps that's what you were referring to.

Andy Palmer, Nissan Great Britain senior vice-president, reportedly told the news outlet that replacing a single module in the Leaf's 48-module battery pack would cost £404 ($662 US).

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garygid said:

Didn't somebody report recently that it would cost the customer
about $600 (plus labor) to replace just ONE of the 48 Modules
at a Nissan Dealer (not under warranty)?

So, maybe $60 to $100 real cost per module now
($3000 to $5000 for just the Battery Pack's modules)?

Click to expand...

Of course that cost is probably mostly labor. I mean if you think about it, most dealerships charge around $120 per hour for labor (even though the poor technician is probably getting around $15) so if you imagine how long it would take to drop the battery pack, disassemble, replace the module, put it all back together.. You probably have 3 or 4 hours there. So that is nearly $500 in labor.. So yeah, I'd agree the module is probably $100 if the cost for a dealer to replace it is $600.

I am also of the agreement that 10 years from now EV charging infrastructure will be much better than it is today. And unless there is a major leap in battery density and cost, I would expect the extra infrastructure to allow 50-mile EV's to be a viable business model (or maybe a car with several choices of battery pack, the lowest being 50 miles) So if my leaf can still drive 50 miles 10 years from now, then it will still be a viable car.

The question is sort of important though, how long will the rest of the car last? As somebody else pointed out most cars are designed with a 10 year life span in mind. I mean, if you look on the road today most of the cars you will see were produced in the 21st century. Sure, there are some still from the 1990's, and very few from the 1980's still on the road. But what is it that actually makes these cars go to the junk-yard?

I'll throw in an example. I had a 1995 Eagle Talon. I bought it used and drove it for about 5 years. The body and interior will still in really good shape, because I take good care of my cars. It had never been wrecked. But around 2009 I had to sell the car. It was 14 years old and it had started smoking. It had around 150,000 miles on it. The problem was the engine, there was no getting around it. The engine would have to be either replaced or rebuilt. The problem was the car was only worth about $3,000 and the cost of the repair would have exceeded the cost of the car. Even if it had a brand-new engine, the value of the car would only reach maybe $4,000 to $5,000. But the real trick is that the car also needed some other work. Some of the bushings in the suspension were giving out. Some of the paint was oxidizing in places, it was probably going to need a lot of new hoses, and other little things.

So, using that as an example. It is sort of hard to predict what an electric car will be worth when the battery needs replacement. If the rest of the car is still in fantastic working order, then it may be perfectly justifiable to spend $10,000 on a new battery pack if it means that car can go another 10 years.

Also, I am willing to bet once the batteries start failing, companies will pop into existence which will refurbish the battery packs probably much cheaper than buying a new one. A lot of people are buying refurbished batteries for the Generation-1 Prius's which are having a lot of failures now that those cars are 10 years old. The cost is usually around $1,200 I think.

There was a webchat on the Volt Forum yesterday. There was a question on how long the main traction should last. The GM rep said the motor has been validated (tested??) to 3 lifetimes where a lifetime is 200,000 miles, so 600,000 miles. I would think there isn't a lot of difference between the Leaf and Volt motors, so the motor shouldn't be a worry.

adric22 said:

...The question is sort of important though, how long will the rest of the car last? As somebody else pointed out most cars are designed with a 10 year life span in mind. I mean, if you look on the road today most of the cars you will see were produced in the 21st century. Sure, there are some still from the 1990's, and very few from the 1980's still on the road. But what is it that actually makes these cars go to the junk-yard?

I'll throw in an example. I had a 1995 Eagle Talon. I bought it used and drove it for about 5 years. The body and interior will still in really good shape, because I take good care of my cars. It had never been wrecked. But around 2009 I had to sell the car. It was 14 years old and it had started smoking. It had around 150,000 miles on it. The problem was the engine, there was no getting around it. The engine would have to be either replaced or rebuilt. The problem was the car was only worth about $3,000 and the cost of the repair would have exceeded the cost of the car. Even if it had a brand-new engine, the value of the car would only reach maybe $4,000 to $5,000. But the real trick is that the car also needed some other work. Some of the bushings in the suspension were giving out. Some of the paint was oxidizing in places, it was probably going to need a lot of new hoses, and other little things.

So, using that as an example. It is sort of hard to predict what an electric car will be worth when the battery needs replacement. If the rest of the car is still in fantastic working order, then it may be perfectly justifiable to spend $10,000 on a new battery pack if it means that car can go another 10 years...

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I'll disagree with that "ten year" estimate of a modern car's design life. A year ago I had to junk my '86 VW Golf with 230,000+ miles on it not because it hadn't been running fine, but because I hit a deer. The car was on the original engine and ran great, because I took care of it. Given that I live in the snowbelt, it did have a bit of rust, but nothing too severe nor structural. By the mid-1980s many cars were using galvanized steel and other coatings that made the bodies last much longer than 1970s versions. My current car, a 1996 Jeep Cherokee, is in fine shape without a bit of rust, but it is also fairly low mileage at 100K. When I bought it used in 1999 I planned on it lasting at least ten years. Now, barring hitting another deer, I still expect to get another ten years out of it at least. And a '96 Jeep is a pretty crude car compared to modern ones.

With care, and a bit of luck, I would expect a LEAF to last at least twenty years. That's at least one, perhaps two, battery changes. Perhaps I will be wrong about that, but my experience with cars is quite different from yours.

LKK said:

Industrial motors like the one used in the Leaf are often used 24/7 and last forever. Few moving parts, no brushes, benign operating environment they should last forever and when they do need maintenance, it will be for simple things like bearings.

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Yes, many 100 plus years running 24/7 only getting oil to the bearing once in a while. Nothing to break if built properly. There is plenty of other stuff on the LEAF to worry about the motor at the bottom of the list.