All "Future" battery technology thread

evnow said:

This is not NMC. They are using Si-C anode and High Density Manganese Rich cathod. They get good price by not using Cobalt which is expensive.

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Envia most definitely is using NMC. They previously called it something like "lithium rich layered-layered composite cathode chemistry" but it's basically Argonne's NMC. http://energy.gov/articles/argonne-lab-s-breakthrough-cathode-technology-powers-electric-vehicles-today" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (that's just the first one that popped up on a search you can find many others).

FYI NMC uses cobalt so sparingly that it has little or no affect on the cost of the cell. The big advantage for NMC is that for a given amount of material it can store more energy. Doubling the energy stored by the same amount of material halves the cost. Envia apparently has also tweaked the anode to complement the cathode, which isn't altogether surprising since the cathode sets the tone of the battery. Using silicon at the anode is not really a breakthrough -- LG Chem currently uses silicon on the anode for the Volt battery.

The interesting aspect of all this for Nissan is that it's not clear how it will get around the Argonne patents on its NMC technology. Time will tell, but if you listen to the press conference where Envia and Argonne discussed the issue it's apparent that Argonne is advancing very broad patent claims.

Just as a FYI I believe that GM started testing the Envia cell material about a year ago. By now it must have reached some conclusions about how viable the chemistry is, which may or may not explain the "news" we're seeing now. No idea if this would be good or bad.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/envia-claims-breakthrough-in-lithium-ion-battery-cost-and-energy-density/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
envia-claims-breakthrough-in-lithium-ion-battery-cost-and-energy-density/


“We will be able to make smaller automotive packs that are also less heavy and much cheaper,” Atul Kapadia, chairman and chief executive of Envia, said in a telephone interview. “The cost of cells will be less than half — perhaps 45 percent — of cells today, and the energy density will be almost three times greater than conventional automotive cells.”

Mr. Kapadia continued: “What we have are not demonstrations, not experiments, but actual products. We could be in automotive production in a year and a half



“If it’s true, it’s a huge breakthrough, because the main problem for battery cars has been cost,” David Cole, chairman emeritus of the Center for Automotive Research, a nonprofit research group based in Michigan, said in a telephone interview. “Right now, the lithium-ion battery is about three times as expensive as it should be for reasonable commercialization. That kind of cost target is the holy grail, and once it’s achieved it’s game on.”

One of the reasons that I leased rather than bought a Leaf was in hopes of this.

ARPA-E:

To compete in the market with gasoline-based vehicles, EVs must cost less and
drive farther. An EV that is cost-competitive with gasoline would require a battery with twice the energy storage of today’s state-
of-the-art Li-Ion battery at 30% of the cost.

Envia Claim:

 “The cost of cells will be less than half — perhaps 45 percent — of cells today, and the energy density will be almost three times greater than conventional automotive cells.”

still in the early stages and MUCH more information is needed here, but this does bring options to the table. sure a "300 mile" pack (200-240 real miles) would be a great option to keep the Leaf in the $35,000 range out of the reach of 70% of Americans but i actually see a "Tesla" like pricing with the "City Leaf" being $25,000 with a 100 mile pack the "Suburban Leaf" with the 200 mile pack at $30,000 and the "Weekend Leaf" with the 300 mile pack.

fact of the matter; better battery technology is not likely to get us more range. the Leaf is too expensive and Nissan knows it. they know that 30-40 more miles is really where they need to be, but the cost is simply too much. if batteries get better, expect the price of the car to go down significantly while the range goes up slightly.

I, for one, can only hope that Nissan offers different range packs (i personally dont think they will)

DaveinOlyWA said:

still in the early stages and MUCH more information is needed here, but this does bring options to the table. sure a "300 mile" pack (200-240 real miles) would be a great option to keep the Leaf in the $35,000 range out of the reach of 70% of Americans but i actually see a "Tesla" like pricing with the "City Leaf" being $25,000 with a 100 mile pack the "Suburban Leaf" with the 200 mile pack at $30,000 and the "Weekend Leaf" with the 300 mile pack.

fact of the matter; better battery technology is not likely to get us more range. the Leaf is too expensive and Nissan knows it. they know that 30-40 more miles is really where they need to be, but the cost is simply too much. if batteries get better, expect the price of the car to go down significantly while the range goes up slightly.

I, for one, can only hope that Nissan offers different range packs (i personally dont think they will)

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"Silicon Valley start-up called Envia Systems says it has a lithium-ion battery prototype that within three years could power 300 mile-per-charge electric cars that cost between $25,000-$30,000."

Desertstraw said:

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/envia-claims-breakthrough-in-lithium-ion-battery-cost-and-energy-density/
envia-claims-breakthrough-in-lithium-ion-battery-cost-and-energy-density/


“We will be able to make smaller automotive packs that are also less heavy and much cheaper,” Atul Kapadia, chairman and chief executive of Envia, said in a telephone interview. “The cost of cells will be less than half — perhaps 45 percent — of cells today, and the energy density will be almost three times greater than conventional automotive cells.”

Mr. Kapadia continued: “What we have are not demonstrations, not experiments, but actual products. We could be in automotive production in a year and a half...

One of the reasons that I leased rather than bought a Leaf was in hopes of this.

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Do you own or lease, an ICEV?

As soon as BEVs with batteries at close to these costs and energy densities are widely available, the resale prices for ICEVs will collapse.

Rapid battery improvement poses a far greater depreciation risk to owners of gasoline fueled vehicles, than to LEAF owners, IMO.

I'd like to draw readers attention to this blog and its associated comments:

http://www.openthefuture.com/2012/02/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perhaps there is already a discussion in another forum thread (searching is no longer a trivial process) but I believe it would be interesting to explore the battery energy density required to match an ICE vehicle, with allowances for the relative weights of an ICE/transmission/with 1/2 tank of fuel vs that of an electric motor and its required battery in terms of passenger miles deliverable. As someone who drove an Isuzu P'up diesel, I know from experience that diesel engines, while more fuel efficient, are also heavier, just in case someone wants to include modern diesels in the calculation.

Clearly a lot of progress has been made since early adopters attempted the use of lead/acid batteries in automobiles. How much more progress needs to be made?

Keep in mind that GM, which invested in Envia a year ago, has said the Argonne/Envia cathode material increase in capacity "is more than single digit" (something like that). That's significant but not in the 100% range. The bright side is that anything near 300 kWh/kg is probably good enough. At that energy density the battery becomes less important than the lack or high cost of "home" charging.

i think that batteries will never get beyond what can be charged at home overnight.

so if 6.6 Kw charging is common we are looking at perhaps a 60 Kw battery recharged from empty in about 10 hours. which can take us nominally 200 miles. that will be it.

of course there will be the "high end" crowd who already has greater options for the price such as the ability to use two 20 Kw chargers simultaneously to charge a larger pack yada yada...

but then again they tend to live in 12,000 sq ft homes too. which is just as ludicrous in my opinion

SanDust said:

Keep in mind that GM, which invested in Envia a year ago, has said the Argonne/Envia cathode material increase in capacity "is more than single digit" (something like that). That's significant but not in the 100% range.

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The cathode is only part of the equation to producing a high energy density battery.

Envia apparently has been hard at work on the rest of it in conjunction with the Argonne tech.

Envia Systems announcement may herald the first wave of DOE-supported commercial high energy density Li-ion cells with Si-C anodes

SanDust said:

The bright side is that anything near 300 kWh/kg is probably good enough. At that energy density the battery becomes less important than the lack or high cost of "home" charging.

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The largest factor will be cost. If they can cut cost in half and reach 300 Wh/kg (kWh would be dreaming. ) that would double the LEAFs battery back capacity at the same cost.

A LEAF with 150 mi highway range would meet nearly everyone's needs with very few QC stations.

DaveinOlyWA said:

i think that batteries will never get beyond what can be charged at home overnight.

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I don't know if I'm willing to go that far. I see what you're saying, but if I had a 300 mile pack for those occasional long trips, for my usual 45 mile days I'm still going to easily be able to charge it up overnight because it won't get empty enough that I won't be able to do so. Or maybe my routine will be to keep the pack in the 40-80% full range most of the time so maybe I can only charge every other day or so.

Sure, when it comes time to do that 300 mile trip I may have to plan ahead for a few days to make sure I'm able to fill it up the night before. Now you may fairly ask whether Joe Public is going to be willing and able to do this kind of planning...

DaveinOlyWA said:

i think that batteries will never get beyond what can be charged at home overnight.

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I do not see your problem. Using Leaf numbers, a half hour quick charge gives 80% of battery capacity, about a 50 mile range. A 300 mile charge would require three hours on a quick charger. Since charging will be done at home, the deployment of relatively few quick chargers will easily take care of distance travelers.

Post subject: Re: LA Auto Show green car newsPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:50 pm


Gold Member

I scanned thru this Future Battery Tech section, and didnt see this from the LA car show I saw in another thread here on MNL. What ever happened to THIS discovery ? It seems to be the "cold Fusion" of discovery if it comes to fruition. Its 3X what Envia is....
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
Posts: 3393
Location: San Fernando Valley, CA
Leaf Number: 360 This was also discussed at the show:

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... -kung.html

A team of engineers has created an electrode for lithium-ion batteries -- rechargeable batteries such as those found in cellphones and iPods -- that allows the batteries to hold a charge up to 10 times greater than current technology. Batteries with the new electrode also can charge 10 times faster than current batteries.

Desertstraw said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

i think that batteries will never get beyond what can be charged at home overnight.

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I do not see your problem. Using Leaf numbers, a half hour quick charge gives 80% of battery capacity, about a 50 mile range. A 300 mile charge would require three hours on a quick charger. Since charging will be done at home, the deployment of relatively few quick chargers will easily take care of distance travelers.

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If I were to travel using QC, I wouldn't do just a 30 minute charge. I discovered that with an extra ten minutes, I can get over 85%(true SOC)/11 bars . That would take me much more than 50 miles at 60-65mph. At 60mph (hit 4.2m/kW h for 30 mile trip yesterday), I can get over 4m/kW h (I always exceed the 'chart') which would take me 75-80 miles. QCing will definitely work for me.

LEAFfan said:

... If I were to travel using QC, I wouldn't do just a 30 minute charge. I discovered that with an extra ten minutes, I can get over 85%(true SOC)/11 bars . That would take me much more than 50 miles at 60-65mph. At 60mph (hit 4.2m/kW h for 30 mile trip yesterday), I can get over 4m/kW h (I always exceed the 'chart') which would take me 75-80 miles. QCing will definitely work for me.

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Actually, if you are trying to minimize the wait time, you should definitely stop at 80% (or even earlier) if that will let you reach the next QC point. The charge rate declines steadily as the charge progresses.

davewill said:

LEAFfan said:

... If I were to travel using QC, I wouldn't do just a 30 minute charge. I discovered that with an extra ten minutes, I can get over 85%(true SOC)/11 bars . That would take me much more than 50 miles at 60-65mph. At 60mph (hit 4.2m/kW h for 30 mile trip yesterday), I can get over 4m/kW h (I always exceed the 'chart') which would take me 75-80 miles. QCing will definitely work for me.

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Actually, if you are trying to minimize the wait time, you should definitely stop at 80% (or even earlier) if that will let you reach the next QC point. The charge rate declines steadily as the charge progresses.

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Time isn't a factor for me. I'm well aware of how QCing works. I've been doing them since Nov. It doesn't slow down that much until after about 40 mins., then it will take another 20 just to get another 5%. I like to drive for an hour or so before taking a break, so I wouldn't mind waiting an extra 5-10 mins. to take it to 85% or better. It doesn't always take 30 minutes for an 80% charge. I've done them in 24 minutes...it just depends on a lot of factors.

Desertstraw said:

I do not see your problem. Using Leaf numbers, a half hour quick charge gives 80% of battery capacity, about a 50 mile range. A 300 mile charge would require three hours on a quick charger. Since charging will be done at home, the deployment of relatively few quick chargers will easily take care of distance travelers.

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I think this is an over simplification. While I've not had the chance to quick charge I understand the "30 min" is relative to the first Low Battery warning - not Zero. it is also to the 80% level.

So, say LBW is 18%, a 30min quick charge is only a 62% fill - say between 13 and 15 kWh.

the quick charge is thus averaging between 26 and 30 kW.

if I remember correctly, the max charge rate for CHADEMO is 50KW.


Anybody with QC experience care to comment? How much energy really is transferred? What is the max rate vs average?

So, a leaf with a double sized battery could, in theory, charge in the same time, more or less.

Of course, once you pass the 50KW limit we'll need a faster standard.

ok a 300 mile pack is gonna be about 3X bigger than the status quo so we say 75 Kw.

QC does run at 50 Kwh so its gonna take about 90 minutes to get to around 90 %.

now this is good for a one stop charge on a 500 mile trip. ok , ya i can see that and that should cover about ½ of 1% of the trips made.

so, how much is an automaker going to put into making this pack. i guess i should retract my statement that it will never happen to it wont happen within 10 years, maybe 20 years.

now if eestor comes up with their 54 kw pack for $200 a K that can charge in 5 minutes then we all set right?

well, ya maybe but betting what will see is EVs running around in 27 Kw packs for half the price (half the pack price that is) outselling the cars with the 54 kw packs by 20 to 1

essaunders said:

Desertstraw said:

if I remember correctly, the max charge rate for CHADEMO is 50KW.

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The CHAdeMO specs goes to 100kW (200A 500V). The charger may limit at less. Most of todays chargers are limited to something between 49kW and 62.5kW.

DaveinOlyWA said:

well, ya maybe but betting what will see is EVs running around in 27 Kw packs for half the price (half the pack price that is) outselling the cars with the 54 kw packs by 20 to 1

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I don't think so. Look at the thousands of people who have reserved a Tesla Model S. Polls indicate that most of them are going for the 85kWh pack, some for the 60kWh pack and quite few want the 40kWh pack.

For $5400 extra, I think a LOT of people would choose a 54kWh pack over a 27kWh pack. The 85kWh Tesla pack costs $20k more than the 40kWh pack and $10k more than the 60kWh one.

My guess would be a 50/50 split between 27kWh and 54kWh, maybe tilted even more at 54kWh.