Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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klapauzius said:
In any case, I am still hoping this is an outlier, but it leaves an unpleasant feeling. Adding to range anxiety, we now have capacity anxiety as well...seems like EVs are not for those faint of heart :D
Personally, I'm pretty sure that this is an outlier. Battery health and degradation have been discussed at great length on this forum going back to 2010. Yes, this new case is disconcerting, but unless we see this with much greater frequency, there is no need to get nervous about it. The vast majority of us will be fine, and aside from the occasional module replacement, these batteries should prove to be more robust than we thought possible.

What I found interesting is that all the known cases of what could be described as premature battery aging were clustered in and around Phoenix, AZ. It would be good to have some organized way of collecting and keeping data from a few hundred owners.
 
The 5-Star Report seems to be primarily a battery Usage/Charging
Statistics summary, not really deeived from any Battery Testing.

The Capacity bar at the top appears to be just
the Capacity Bars that one can see in the car.
In other words, NO information until AFTER the car has lost
a very significant part (15%) of its Pack capacity.

If Pack Capacity and Health are "measured" at all, it would seem
likely that the readings are only seen by Nissan, not the Dealer.
 
surfingslovak said:
What I found interesting is that all the known cases of what could be described as premature battery aging were clustered in and around Phoenix, AZ. It would be good to have some organized way of collecting and keeping data few hundred owners.
I am sure there is one person somewhere around Austin that reported more then normal capacity loss
 
EdmondLeaf said:
I am sure there is one person somewhere around Austin that reported more then normal capacity loss
Interesting, thank you! Would you know how much approximately, and how old the car might have been?
 
I can't speak for azdre's car, but TickTock's and mine were left for almost three months (mine was end of Mar.-beginning of June) in the LA port and who knows how the battery pack could have been abused. I'm going to try and make an appt. before my battery pack check is due. I'll try to get the capacity reading and the bad cells/module if I can.
 
garygid said:
The 5-Star Report seems to be primarily a battery Usage/Charging
Statistics summary, not really deeived from any Battery Testing.

Not disagreeing with you and I want to add I think it is just a white washed report and the real purpose is to collect proprietory data for Nissan.
Serves very little use to the consumer.
 
surfingslovak said:
Interesting, thank you! Would you know how much approximately, and how old the car might have been?
mckemie said:
I just charged to 100% after receiving my SOC meter a few ways ago. 256. Slightly alarming. Range has always seemed acceptable. We now have 14k miles and charged to 100% for the first 10-12k miles. Then, it dawned on me that 80% would suffice for most of our trips. We now charge to 100% only about once a week. Indicated range (trip distance plus SMRD reading) is 90-95 miles on a full charge. That makes maximum range (to turtle) 95-105 miles.

If the gid really represents energy in the battery, I am 10-12% low.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8337&p=187861#

delivered 5/24/11
 
azdre said:
* We do 'top it off' a lot. That's the one item we got 4/5 stars on the battery check in March 2012.
I'm not sure what your definition of that is, but you might have run afoul of one of the specific warranty exclusions:
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting from or caused by:
  • ...
  • Charging the lithium-ion battery full on a daily basis despite the lithium-ion battery keeping a high state of charge level (98-100%).
Ray
 
planet4ever said:
azdre said:
* We do 'top it off' a lot. That's the one item we got 4/5 stars on the battery check in March 2012.
I'm not sure what your definition of that is, but you might have run afoul of one of the specific warranty exclusions:
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting from or caused by:
  • ...
  • Charging the lithium-ion battery full on a daily basis despite the lithium-ion battery keeping a high state of charge level (98-100%).
Ray

Interesting. I don't think that is an issue though. It's always at least 10% depleted when we plug in. There's no trip we take that's less than 10 miles. And those 10-20% top-offs that I speak of are relatively infrequent, once a week at the most.

The thing that does concern me with this statement is that the Blink will sometimes (less now than it used to) just run a 2-5 minute charge in the middle of the night for no reason. I elect to get a text message when the car stops or completes charges and sometimes I'd wake up with 2 or 3 charge complete messages.

One of the main reasons I like to remain plugged in is so I can take advantage of pre-cooling and heating while connected. I'm not sure how Nissan intended we do this if we're not supposed to be plugging in when the SOC is above 80%.
 
LEAFfan said:
The first bar doesn't disappear until you've lost 15%. So this doesn't sound "gradual" to me. 2% sounds gradual.
People are probably getting tired of me saying this, but please, folks, go check a dictionary. "Gradual" does not mean "slow". If you were losing 1% of your battery capacity every week, that would be very rapid loss, and you would be down a capacity bar in less than four months, but it would still be gradual. If you suddenly lost 10% of your capacity you would still have 12 capacity bars, but that would not be gradual. Gradual means "a little bit at a time." If the battery cells get weaker over time, that is gradual. If some cells suddenly fail, that is not gradual.

Sudden failure is covered. Losing capacity a little bit every day is not covered, no matter how fast it happens. I'm sure any court will uphold that as the proper interpretation of the word "gradual".

Ray
 
azdre said:
One of the main reasons I like to remain plugged in is so I can take advantage of pre-cooling and heating while connected. I'm not sure how Nissan intended we do this if we're not supposed to be plugging in when the SOC is above 80%.
That's a very good point. I suppose you could set a timer for 80%, and override it when you really want to charge, but that seems like a pain.

What about that month when it was sitting at 100%? Was it plugged in, and was there a timer that kicked in every night?

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
LEAFfan said:
The first bar doesn't disappear until you've lost 15%. So this doesn't sound "gradual" to me. 2% sounds gradual.
People are probably getting tired of me saying this, but please, folks, go check a dictionary. "Gradual" does not mean "slow". If you were losing 1% of your battery capacity every week, that would be very rapid loss, and you would be down a capacity bar in less than four months, but it would still be gradual. If you suddenly lost 10% of your capacity you would still have 12 capacity bars, but that would not be gradual. Gradual means "a little bit at a time." If the battery cells get weaker over time, that is gradual. If some cells suddenly fail, that is not gradual.

Sudden failure is covered. Losing capacity a little bit every day is not covered, no matter how fast it happens. I'm sure any court will uphold that as the proper interpretation of the word "gradual".

Ray

I would say that a 15% capacity loss in one year, and then a 15% loss in the remaining 6+ years would constitute non-gradual. AND, just to be fun, according to Lord Google, gradual does mean slow: Taking place or progressing slowly or by degrees. :geek:
 
I know it's already been said, but I'll echo the obvious to me. You did precisely what Nissan says is not good for the battery, and you did it in almost worst case conditions (hot).

The only thing positive I can say is that it wasn't 120F+.

I cycle my battery from 100% to literally turtle many times, and at 22,200 miles in one year, I still have virtually the same battery performance as new. But, my car is never exposed to Phoenix style heat, and it never sits at over 80% charge for more than a few hours.

I've been out of town for the past almost month, and my car has been patiently waiting for me at 50% charge in a cool garage with the 12 volt battery on a tender. The car is not plugged in to the Blink.

Heat is a killer to the life of these batteries, particularly when left at a high state of charge.
 
azdre said:
just to be fun, according to Lord Google, gradual does mean slow: Taking place or progressing slowly or by degrees. :geek:
So, according to Lord Google, "slowly" is gradual; "by degrees" is also gradual. Therefore, Your Honor, if the loss happens slowly it is not covered. If it happens by degrees it is not covered. The Defense rests. :twisted:

Ray
 
Heat and high soc. not good these batteries

We will see most battery issues in these warmest states

Downside to the Leaf pack design

If I lived in Phoenix. I would buy a focus or a volt
 
Had the car just over one year. Over 20,500 miles and charge to 100% twice a day. Battery capacity is pretty much the same as it was when new.
 
Did you lease or buy

Good question for lease , let's say you are down 2 capacity bars or more by lease turn in

Guess its not damage, so you are ok?
 
TonyWilliams said:
Heat is a killer to the life of these batteries, particularly when left at a high state of charge.

It isn't just any heat that will damage the battery. You would have to leave it in 122 degree heat for 24 hours to damage it or like that one nss (I'm being nice) driver, QC it more than 6 times a day. That's the two worst things. Just the heat of AZ will NOT damage the battery. Leaving it at 100% for long periods will (doesn't matter if it is cool temps) and topping off above 80% will also. Those are the next worst for the battery pack.
 
So if you have no timer set and the blink turns off-on-off-on in the night you get several 100% charges?
I would assume if the timer was set there would be no issue because the timer would not start again once fully charged.
I would sort this out or dump that free blink that may cost you a battery.
 
smkettner said:
So if you have no timer set and the blink turns off-on-off-on in the night you get several 100% charges?
I would assume if the timer was set there would be no issue because the timer would not start again once fully charged.
I would sort this out or dump that free blink that may cost you a battery.

First off, the Blink will not charge if the timer is off on both the car and Blink. The Blink isn't the problem. It's all on how you set your timers. My advice is not to use the Blink timer, but to set your LEAF timer to the same time. For instance, I set my LEAF timer to 11AM and 11AM. Now, I can leave it plugged in for pre-conditioning as long as I remove the plug before 11AM. So overnight, it will not charge. It doesn't matter which times you choose, just choose two morning times the same. Also, with the timers set to the same time, anywhere you plug in, it will start charging.
 
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