Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and ChadeMo

Another interesting arguement is technically, the whole standard war is being hypocritical by the government.

The government has given grants to ECOtality plus other companies Like Aerovironment to supply Level 3 DC fast chargers in the form of CHAdeMO. Then, governemnt supported (through stock) GM is trying to push another standard. Isn't this all a waste of taxpayers money? Why throw money at CHAdeMO for deployment only to have a stake in the company fighting it? Or is that a way to be in a win-win situation.

CHAdeMO was first in the USA and their deployment was first by government backed money. Techncially the US government has more support of CHAdeMO than the SAE standard. I see that any support that GM has for the SAE standard or fighting against the CHAdeMO standard is a waste of government spending. Fiscal responsibility, at this point, would be to support the infrastructure you, as the taxpayers, have paid money for.

GaslessInSeattle said:

I think you are dead wrong, the west coast is already going CHAdeMO full steam and is investing millions in the West Coast Green Highway http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/. Sure the charging stations can be swapped out later but the key is that it's happening now and the SAE is too late for us not to move forward. If all the EV manufacturers were being smart they would make the port plug style easy to swap out, go with CHAdeMO for now and leave it up to the customer to have it swapped out later if the need arises, it's of little consequence that it takes up more room. This way there would be a clear path to getting quick charging out there at this very critical time for the EV market. Producing a car with no Quick Charging port capacity will leave buyers of that car left out in the cold in the very near future, no matter what standard wins out, and slow the adoption of quick charging overall. The Northwest will have the first QC network and I think it's going to be come very evident just how useful, actually crucial quick charging is to the mass adoption of EV's very soon. I drove 160 miles in the Leaf yesterday within just a few hours, all because of 1 quick charger within driving distance of my house, it was very nice and the parking space was free for another car in a matter of minutes compared to the hours it would have taken on an L2! I'd trade virtually all the public level 2 chargers in the area for a handful of well spaced QC's.

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You would be ALONE in that sentement - ask Tony Williams how hard it is to get people to pay for and make money with DC stations.

This is only a critical time because there is no other option for RLBEV.

It's funny. Imagine if the Volt's on-board generator could only charge while stopped, and you had to remain stopped for 50 minutes. Then you could drive 40 miles but then you had to stop again for 50 minutes. That's nuts, right? But, that's what you're advocating. Sure, the Leaf can go 65 miles but you're stopping while the Volt cruises on by.

Anyway, I did like what you said about swapping out the ports and internals on the Leaf, and hopefully Nissan or the aftermarket will have a solution for the 10k Leaf's out there.

GaslessInSeattle said:

gesture of goodwill? It's the SAE that dragged it's heals for years on this. there's no mistaking it, it's the SAE that has waited so long to create a "standard" that Nissan had to move forward with their own. As mentioned, we are weeks away from people getting their hands on the first QC network in the US. CHAdeMO is here now for us all to begin demonstrating the true suitability of EV's for the masses, even if a new standard gets adopted, Nissan has succeeded in outmaneuvering the SAE's heel dragging and pressured them to move forward faster and we will all benefit from that. Carlos Ghosn is a brilliant man!

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Yes, they could call it a gesture of goodwill. Nissan is not a superpower in the industry; they have done great things with EV but they aren't big enough to set the standard as we're seeing now. The standard was set by 8 major manufacturers. Nissan would be wise to get on-board now, rather than continuing this futile struggle against the bigs.

The true suitability? Really? Like I said, ask Tony Williams about the DC station business model. DC is not being used and almost no one wants to pay for it. They'd rather take their ICE. Look at the poll here for proof. How suitable is it when you drive 65-70 miles then stop for 50 minutes before going another 65-70 miles only to stop for another 50? DC fast charging makes way more sense in a car with actual range. When your travel time is effectively doubled because of refueling it's not going to be deemed suitable by the masses.

Pipcecil said:

Another interesting arguement is technically, the whole standard war is being hypocritical by the government.

The government has given grants to ECOtality plus other companies Like Aerovironment to supply Level 3 DC fast chargers in the form of CHAdeMO. Then, governemnt supported (through stock) GM is trying to push another standard. Isn't this all a waste of taxpayers money? Why throw money at CHAdeMO for deployment only to have a stake in the company fighting it? Or is that a way to be in a win-win situation.

CHAdeMO was first in the USA and their deployment was first by government backed money. Techncially the US government has more support of CHAdeMO than the SAE standard. I see that any support that GM has for the SAE standard or fighting against the CHAdeMO standard is a waste of government spending. Fiscal responsibility, at this point, would be to support the infrastructure you, as the taxpayers, have paid money for.

Click to expand...

The solution to stopping more government waste is to just continue doing what they're doing? To tell 8 major manufacturers from two different continents that the U.S. doesn't care what the standard is. So that's the plan? The U.S. will pick CHAdeMO because they've spent some money? I find it amazing that the haters who call GM Government Motors think that the government will chose Nissan over a company they hold stock in and 7 other majors? I'm not talking about you, Pipcecil, I have no idea whether you've called GM that.

The money spent on CHAdeMO was a waste, but EVSE manufacturers have already said they're ready, willing and able to convert them to SAE Combo so the solution is to go with the standard. Nissan should take that advice.

I suspect that GM wants to keep EVs limited in range, so that it is
just a larger-neighborhood or limited-commuter vehicle.
Then, many folks will still feel the "need"
for another (longer-range) vehicle.

They (and "Oil") want to continue making gas-eaters, because
"they" make a lot more on the gas (razor blades, ink-jet modules, toner)
than they do on the car (the shaver "handle/holder", the printer), I suspect.

If EVs get "out of the box" (Neighborhood) with QC fueling stations
available "everywhere", there will no longer be a perceived need for
each family to have "that 2nd" (long-range gas-burning) car.

IMO, the "Standards" thing is NOT about 1 socket or 2,
it is about slowing the "EV tide".

After all, Europe is not adopting the same plug as the USA,
but planning on using an incompatible "MerkenStein" plug.

The plug shape is not the big issue, but the incompatible
control-communication IS a significant "glitch".
Just enough to slow the whole industry for 10 years, or so.

garygid said:

If EVs get "out of the box" (Neighborhood) with QC fueling stations
available "everywhere", there will no longer be a perceived need for
each family to have "that 2nd" (long-range gas-burning) car.

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Can you blame GM for this attitude?.. they and the dealers have a lot of infrastructure dedicated to gas engines, and GM does not even own one single battery factory. It is your stock value that they are protecting.

Herm said:

Can you blame GM for this attitude?.. they and the dealers have a lot of infrastructure dedicated to gas engines, and GM does not even own one single battery factory. It is your stock value that they are protecting.

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Hell, yes.

Pipcecil said:

Another interesting arguement is technically, the whole standard war is being hypocritical by the government.

The government has given grants to ECOtality plus other companies Like Aerovironment to supply Level 3 DC fast chargers in the form of CHAdeMO. Then, governemnt supported (through stock) GM is trying to push another standard. Isn't this all a waste of taxpayers money? Why throw money at CHAdeMO for deployment only to have a stake in the company fighting it? Or is that a way to be in a win-win situation.

CHAdeMO was first in the USA and their deployment was first by government backed money. Techncially the US government has more support of CHAdeMO than the SAE standard. I see that any support that GM has for the SAE standard or fighting against the CHAdeMO standard is a waste of government spending. Fiscal responsibility, at this point, would be to support the infrastructure you, as the taxpayers, have paid money for.

Click to expand...

The only wasted money I see is the bailout of GM. But that is another thread. One more reason I will not buy another GM vehicle or recommend one ever.
Otherwise get off your backside GM and produce a vehicle with an SAE port already.

garygid said:

If EVs get "out of the box" (Neighborhood) with QC fueling stations
available "everywhere", there will no longer be a perceived need for
each family to have "that 2nd" (long-range gas-burning) car.

Click to expand...

DC charging stations are a Band-Aid for the problem. The problem is the batteries. A member named gasslessinseattle (?) posted a map of projected DC QC stations in another thread. The map showed how ridiculous this can get - it had 20+ stations only a few miles apart. Yet, how are sales? (in case you don't know Nissan only sold 350 Leaf's last month)

Can you imagine owning an ICE and stopping to refuel every 65-75 miles for 50 minutes? ICE owners can't and that's why the Leaf's sales are down. We need batteries to get more efficient with a distance comparable to an ICE.

The batteries are EV's biggest issue, not that mean GM that sells gasoline vehicles (BTW, so does everyone) and doesn't even own it's own battery plant.

you've got to be kidding right? there are gas stations across the street from one another. What we need is to get the DC charging network way ahead of the deployment of the cars and we are just beginning to see that. eventually, when the number of EV's builds, we will need multiple stations to cover the number of users, as not everyone is going to be charging at the same intervals. Oh and don't forget, that every EV owner will have a convenient yet slower charging station at home for overnight use, something not practical for gas cars and with today's batteries, that more than covers the average 30 miles a day that people drive. The DC charging network is for the occasion that people want to go further.

DANandNAN said:

garygid said:

If EVs get "out of the box" (Neighborhood) with QC fueling stations
available "everywhere", there will no longer be a perceived need for
each family to have "that 2nd" (long-range gas-burning) car.

Click to expand...

DC charging stations are a Band-Aid for the problem. The problem is the batteries. A member named gasslessinseattle (?) posted a map of projected DC QC stations in another thread. The map showed how ridiculous this can get - it had 20+ stations only a few miles apart. Yet, how are sales? (in case you don't know Nissan only sold 350 Leaf's last month)

Can you imagine owning an ICE and stopping to refuel every 65-75 miles for 50 minutes? ICE owners can't and that's why the Leaf's sales are down. We need batteries to get more efficient with a distance comparable to an ICE.

The batteries are EV's biggest issue, not that mean GM that sells gasoline vehicles (BTW, so does everyone) and doesn't even own it's own battery plant.

Click to expand...

DANandNAN said:

Can you imagine owning an ICE and stopping to refuel every 65-75 miles for 50 minutes? ICE owners can't and that's why the Leaf's sales are down. We need batteries to get more efficient with a distance comparable to an ICE.

Click to expand...

It probably won't happen soon enough. What we have is what we have- we just need to exploit what this car is good at. It's a good runabout and it's a good commuter car. It's not a vacation car, it's not a road trip car- quick charge or no quick charge. Ghosn has publicly come out and said they aren't marketing the car for those purposes. You make a good point. Even if there were quick charge stations, and even if I had a LEAF equipped with some sort of quick charge standard, if I have to do a 400 mile roadtrip, I'm not going to take a LEAF- that's for sure. That is, unless gas went up to $6/gal.

Those are the two ways I see EVs going mainstream. 1) Gas prices explode. 2) There's a battery technology game changer. Otherwise, it's just a commuter or runabout for most drivers- even though it does those two things better than any gas car that I've driven, IMHO.

GaslessInSeattle said:

I think you are dead wrong, the west coast is already going CHAdeMO full steam and is investing millions in the West Coast Green Highway http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/.

Sure the charging stations can be swapped out later but the key is that it's happening now and the SAE is too late for us not to move forward. If all the EV manufacturers were being smart they would make the port plug style easy to swap out, go with CHAdeMO for now and leave it up to the customer to have it swapped out later if the need arises, it's of little consequence that it takes up more room. This way there would be a clear path to getting quick charging out there at this very critical time for the EV market. Producing a car with no Quick Charging port capacity will leave buyers of that car left out in the cold in the very near future, no matter what standard wins out, and slow the adoption of quick charging overall. The Northwest will have the first QC network and I think it's going to be come very evident just how useful, actually crucial quick charging is to the mass adoption of EV's very soon. I drove 160 miles in the Leaf yesterday within just a few hours, all because of 1 quick charger within driving distance of my house, it was very nice and the parking space was free for another car in a matter of minutes compared to the hours it would have taken on an L2! I'd trade virtually all the public level 2 chargers in the area for a handful of well spaced QC's.

Click to expand...

George, at the moment 'Full steam' doesn't amount to much. Here in California (the largest EV market in the country) we have 4 or 5 ChaDeMos available to the public. There's a somewhat larger number in Oregon (18?), and somewhat less than that in Washington. Even if the NRG deal goes through unchanged, the total number of CHaDeMos in CA will be quite small. Compared to the large number of EVs and DCQCs that we all hope will be sold and installed in the next few years, the numbers currently out there or likely to be sold/installed in the next year or two barely even register.

I'm all in favor of getting CHaDeMo QCs out there now on popular routes so that BEVs will be able to double the practical distance they can be used for, as I don't see the numbers as large enough to restrict options for the long-term. The early adopters will likely have to just suck it up if the standard goes against them, and that was the risk they took. By the time it's a major issue there will probably be much better BEVs available, and they'll want to upgrade in any case.

dont forget the 16 QCs in tennessee and the ones I use can extend my range to cover half my state

Those are the two ways I see EVs going mainstream. 1) Gas prices explode. 2) There's a battery technology game changer. Otherwise, it's just a commuter or runabout for most drivers- even though it does those two things better than any gas car that I've driven, IMHO.

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If gas prices "explode", people aren't going to go out and buy a $37,000 car that gets 72 miles per charge. They will simply drive less. Or, they will budget for the higher amount that petrol costs and cut somewhere else.

DanandNan, I've been saying this for a long time here. EV's will NOT go mainstream until two things happen. They get the price down to comparable petrol engined vehicles; and the range of the battery increases considerably.

You could have quick chargers on every corner like they do gas stations now but if it takes 1/2 hour to charge, it's a losing business model. Especially when the manufacturer of the company states that it's not real healthy for the battery to be charged often with a quick charger.

People also have in their minds, that laptop batteries last a couple years and they're a brick. IF this battery can last five years and degrade "only" 30%, that is still about 21 miles so now the car has a range of 50 miles.

It is going to take decades for a gradual transition to another type of energy propulsion, whether it's natural gas, electric, hydrogen, gasoline hybride or a combination. It takes, money, time, and there's the pesky little problem of having people actually buy your product. And if sales are an indicator, that's going to be an issue.

A couple hundred cars every month in the U.S. isn't going to cut it. People aren't going to be any more confident about EV's now than 20 years ago if the same problems exist, which, they do. Limited range, high cost, and degrading batteries.

Just because enthusiasts are willing to accept the shortcomings of a 100% EV, doesn't mean the other 99+% are going to.

kubel said:

Those are the two ways I see EVs going mainstream. 1) Gas prices explode. 2) There's a battery technology game changer. Otherwise, it's just a commuter or runabout for most drivers- even though it does those two things better than any gas car that I've driven, IMHO.

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Having driven a LEAF for one year, if battery costs come down, I don't ever want an ICE as my primary most miles driven vehicle ever again.
Even with the uncertainties of battery life, with the subsidies, it made huge financial sense for me and the other early adopters. (32 mile round trip daily commute)
There is NOTHING wrong with the LEAF being a commuter or runabout vehicle, as most of the time 85% of the people in the US don't need their primary high mileage vehicle to do anything that the LEAF doesn't already do.
And a very large % of the US has two or three vehicles per household. For them the LEAF should be the first vehicle. The high mileage commuting vehicle.
It may take higher gas prices and reduced battery costs and confidence of battery life for the mainstream public to see that.
But I think we'll get there sometime in the 5 to 10 year time horizon.

kubel said:

It probably won't happen soon enough. What we have is what we have- we just need to exploit what this car is good at. It's a good runabout and it's a good commuter car. It's not a vacation car, it's not a road trip car- quick charge or no quick charge. Ghosn has publicly come out and said they aren't marketing the car for those purposes. You make a good point. Even if there were quick charge stations, and even if I had a LEAF equipped with some sort of quick charge standard, if I have to do a 400 mile roadtrip, I'm not going to take a LEAF- that's for sure. That is, unless gas went up to $6/gal.

Those are the two ways I see EVs going mainstream. 1) Gas prices explode. 2) There's a battery technology game changer. Otherwise, it's just a commuter or runabout for most drivers- even though it does those two things better than any gas car that I've driven, IMHO.

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. I may have made the wrong choice by getting the SL over the SV. I haven't had a single opportunity nor the desire to do a Quick Charge since I got it. I mainly thought it would improve resale value when I sell down the line, but now I'm not so sure.

I do like the backup camera, cargo cover, and the auto headlights, but the solar spoiler is a joke.

In the end, I have thoroughly enjoyed my CHAdeMO port. I have quick charged numerous times and it has allowed me to take many more trips in my leaf versus an ICE car (before I got my volt, and even then, the volt would use some gas on those trips).

The infighting on the DC ports to me is just plain dumb. GM (and the other car companies) want a stake in the market, I get it. And, as a company you will do whatever is needed for profit including stiffling the competition - its what every business does.

Unfortunately, I think the fighting is causing damage to adaption of EVs overall anyway. Its similar to the HD DVD vs Blu Ray wars. No one wanted to purchase the players until it was "settled" whom the winner was, and, I see it the same way.

To me, neither plug has advantage over the other which is why it makes this battle more dumb. If SAE had come up with a revolutionary design that could double the DC capacity or developed a software protocal that was extremely superior to what CHAdeMO uses, but its not. It reminds me of companies like Apple that produce the next years product that is just barely better than the other and then only half-way support the previous year(s) products. Only this time there really isn't even a better option.

Maybe CHAdeMO was being super morons in letting GM and the other companies use their specs. Maybe the SAE felt they wanted a standard to call "American Made"! Maybe the CHAdeMO standard had problems with some american infrastructure. Who knows.

In the end, its currently a loose-loose situation. Its slowing EV adaption (or will as the numbers tick up), it makes all the companies look bad, and it gives fuel to the media to spend it any way they want it too (since the real reason is unknown, and half the reason only people really deep into the information like us know). I have seen tons of articles praising the SAE for working on a standard so all the world can be the same and work together, yet no mention of other standards and specs used around the world already. The media is already twisting the information to one side or the other.

I don't see any side giving up soon. SAE is really pushing its standard which it needs to without vehicles or working units. CHAdeMO seems to be taking a more silent approach and is just trying to build units (albiet slowly). Who will win? I don't know. But until there is a total beatdown of one (like in HD DVD vs Blu Ray) it will make the entire industry look like idiots as they fight over each other (if you don't remember, try looking up the articles in HD DVD vs Blu Ray the fighting was brutal and it just hurt the customer whom wouldn't touch anything with a 10 foot stick).

I don't care who wins. One standard is needed. Because I have a leaf with a QC port I would lean toward the tech I have and use, but thats from direct emotional attachment. Neither standard is better, and if they really wanted to do something, they should have come up with a largely superior standard and this whole problem would have gone away easily, but that is just a dream...

GaslessInSeattle said:

you've got to be kidding right? there are gas stations across the street from one another. What we need is to get the DC charging network way ahead of the deployment of the cars and we are just beginning to see that. eventually, when the number of EV's builds, we will need multiple stations to cover the number of users, as not everyone is going to be charging at the same intervals. Oh and don't forget, that every EV owner will have a convenient yet slower charging station at home for overnight use, something not practical for gas cars and with today's batteries, that more than covers the average 30 miles a day that people drive. The DC charging network is for the occasion that people want to go further.

Click to expand...

Ah, yes, all those unprofitable gas stations that were installed by the U.S. government. Wait, which ones are those?

More "QC" stations aren't the answer. Better range and real quick-charges are.

GRA said:

GaslessInSeattle said:

I think you are dead wrong, the west coast is already going CHAdeMO full steam and is investing millions in the West Coast Green Highway http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/.

Sure the charging stations can be swapped out later but the key is that it's happening now and the SAE is too late for us not to move forward. If all the EV manufacturers were being smart they would make the port plug style easy to swap out, go with CHAdeMO for now and leave it up to the customer to have it swapped out later if the need arises, it's of little consequence that it takes up more room. This way there would be a clear path to getting quick charging out there at this very critical time for the EV market. Producing a car with no Quick Charging port capacity will leave buyers of that car left out in the cold in the very near future, no matter what standard wins out, and slow the adoption of quick charging overall. The Northwest will have the first QC network and I think it's going to be come very evident just how useful, actually crucial quick charging is to the mass adoption of EV's very soon. I drove 160 miles in the Leaf yesterday within just a few hours, all because of 1 quick charger within driving distance of my house, it was very nice and the parking space was free for another car in a matter of minutes compared to the hours it would have taken on an L2! I'd trade virtually all the public level 2 chargers in the area for a handful of well spaced QC's.

Click to expand...

George, at the moment 'Full steam' doesn't amount to much. Here in California (the largest EV market in the country) we have 4 or 5 ChaDeMos available to the public. There's a somewhat larger number in Oregon (18?), and somewhat less than that in Washington. Even if the NRG deal goes through unchanged, the total number of CHaDeMos in CA will be quite small. Compared to the large number of EVs and DCQCs that we all hope will be sold and installed in the next few years, the numbers currently out there or likely to be sold/installed in the next year or two barely even register.

I'm all in favor of getting CHaDeMo QCs out there now on popular routes so that BEVs will be able to double the practical distance they can be used for, as I don't see the numbers as large enough to restrict options for the long-term. The early adopters will likely have to just suck it up if the standard goes against them, and that was the risk they took. By the time it's a major issue there will probably be much better BEVs available, and they'll want to upgrade in any case.

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Agreed, and I think George is right, too. How many folks are actually going to #1. Pay for DC and #2. Wait for DC "QC"? The number of Leaf owners willing is really pretty small so why waste the money? I'd love to go EV everywhere, but if I'm the only one using the stations there's going to be a lot of anger against EV.

Train said:

Those are the two ways I see EVs going mainstream. 1) Gas prices explode. 2) There's a battery technology game changer. Otherwise, it's just a commuter or runabout for most drivers- even though it does those two things better than any gas car that I've driven, IMHO.

Click to expand...

If gas prices "explode", people aren't going to go out and buy a $37,000 car that gets 72 miles per charge. They will simply drive less. Or, they will budget for the higher amount that petrol costs and cut somewhere else.

DanandNan, I've been saying this for a long time here. EV's will NOT go mainstream until two things happen. They get the price down to comparable petrol engined vehicles; and the range of the battery increases considerably.

You could have quick chargers on every corner like they do gas stations now but if it takes 1/2 hour to charge, it's a losing business model. Especially when the manufacturer of the company states that it's not real healthy for the battery to be charged often with a quick charger.

People also have in their minds, that laptop batteries last a couple years and they're a brick. IF this battery can last five years and degrade "only" 30%, that is still about 21 miles so now the car has a range of 50 miles.

It is going to take decades for a gradual transition to another type of energy propulsion, whether it's natural gas, electric, hydrogen, gasoline hybride or a combination. It takes, money, time, and there's the pesky little problem of having people actually buy your product. And if sales are an indicator, that's going to be an issue.

A couple hundred cars every month in the U.S. isn't going to cut it. People aren't going to be any more confident about EV's now than 20 years ago if the same problems exist, which, they do. Limited range, high cost, and degrading batteries.

Just because enthusiasts are willing to accept the shortcomings of a 100% EV, doesn't mean the other 99+% are going to.

Click to expand...

Great points too. Current "QC" is quick - to us, the folks that are use to 4 charging a Volt or 8 hours on a Leaf. We're use to waiting, but convincing the mainstream that it's ok to wait or plug in every time you stop isn't going to happen.

Something else to keep in mind is that the CHAdeMO is only capable of 125A, and the SAE Combo will be 200A so it should allow a much faster charge, but obviously LOTS of other factors are involved.