Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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TomT said:
It appears that GM is going to have the last laugh when it comes to batteries and battery thermal management...
Does the Volt expose battery degradation to the user like the Leaf? Do the other EVs such as the i-MiEV or the Focus expose battery degradation to the user?
 
Spies said:
TomT said:
It appears that GM is going to have the last laugh when it comes to batteries and battery thermal management...
Does the Volt expose battery degradation to the user like the Leaf? Do the other EVs such as the i-MiEV or the Focus expose battery degradation to the user?
Yes, I have i-MiEV data, Mitsu service provide owner with raw capacity number so calculation of degradation is very easy.
 
Those are numbers from Europe, so I do not believe discussing them here makes a lot of sense. Beside that batteries that are used here maybe different than in Europe. Car is different and that is sure thing.
 
Spies said:
Does the Volt expose battery degradation to the user like the Leaf? Do the other EVs such as the i-MiEV or the Focus expose battery degradation to the user?

Not as explicitly as the LEAF, but you can see how many kWh a full charge uses. I think most of the guys are getting 10.3 or 10.4 with some seasonal variance. I'd have to look at the gm-volt forums a little more closely. I've only had my Volt about 6 weeks and barely use a full charge.
 
leafkabob said:
1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - __________. ___K/14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix
Looks like phxsmiley (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=206547#p206547" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and azknauer (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=206754#p206754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) need to be added.

It also looks like aqn is adding cases to the wiki (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery,_Charging_System#Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Yay!
 
cwerdna said:
Perhaps there should be a dedicated thread for that and minimal/no discussion there, just to keep that thread clean? Or, alternatively someone needs to maintain/compile a list somewhere like a Google Docs spreadsheet, first post of a thread, in the wiki, etc.? It would sure make it easier to keep track of who, where and how much.
leafkabob said:
1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 12K?/12 months? Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - __________. ___K/14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
I've been keeping track, as best I could, here: http://mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery,_Charging_System#Loss_of_battery_capacity_bar.28s.29_reported_on_mynissanleaf.com_forums" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Feel free to add/edit.
 
1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - __________. ___K/14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix
 
shrink said:
Spies said:
Does the Volt expose battery degradation to the user ?
Not as explicitly as the LEAF, but you can see how many kWh a full charge uses. I think most of the guys are getting 10.3 or 10.4 with some seasonal variance.

GM promised a while back that they would use the unused battery reserve to restore this loss, to get the promised 40 miles of range.
 
leafkabob said:
1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - __________. ___K/14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix
AZknauer says they live in Chandler, AZ (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=206788#p206788" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Not sure why they haven't updated their location...
 
cwerdna said:
... AZknauer says they live in Chandler, AZ (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=206788#p206788" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Not sure why they haven't updated their location...
Chandler is a suburb of Phoenix.
 
TomT said:
It appears that GM is going to have the last laugh when it comes to batteries and battery thermal management... I wonder if Nissan wishes they had changed their mind on no management for the Leaf at this point...
When I tried to explain last year that heat was going to do a number on battery capacity the response was that the Nissan cells were so much better than the LG cells that the Leaf didn't NEED a thermal management system. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5048&p=118407#p118407" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Obviously that was wishful thinking.

Not sure about the last laugh. It may be cheaper for Nissan to replace the packs or stiff those customers in AZ rather than add a TMS to every Leaf. (Hopefully replace the packs). It's just a different strategy. Nissan did was willing to compromise life in order to lower the initial price point; GM was willing to compromise the price point in order to increase battery life. At the moment it's looking like Nissan may have made the worse bet but the game isn't over. (FYI I think the DOE thought Nissan's approach might be better because it would allow the manufacturer to put more EVs on the road sooner).
 
LEAFfan said:
Stoaty said:
myleaf said:
I finally built my SOC kit and measured after 100% charge. I got 227. I ran the climate control using CW for 30 mins and it went to 229. This level of degradation maybe consistent for Phx. I normally charge to 80%. What is odd is that I still have all my capacity bars.
Yes, but it sounds like you are right on the edge of losing the first capacity bar. :(

Yes, they are at a 14% loss right now. They will lose it soon. One other driver that I tested was at 14%, and the next day he lost the first bar.

As predicted by LEAFfan and Stoaty,

I loss the 12th bar today going home from work.

6/19/2012 14 months, 13,300 miles Never QC, usually charge 80%, Phx (Chandler) AZ
 
Sorry to hear that even you expected this, we already know that it not matter much bat please share her you park your car day and night and describe condition. I never thought of running AC in my garage but I did that already and no summer yet
 
EdmondLeaf said:
Sorry to hear that even you expected this, we already know that it not matter much bat please share her you park your car day and night and describe condition. I never thought of running AC in my garage but I did that already and no summer yet

I have covered open parking M-F at work. Rest of the time at home in a closed garage with an ICE car.
 
myleaf said:
As predicted by LEAFfan and Stoaty,

I loss the 12th bar today going home from work.
That makes 13 reported on the forum, plus another 4 by word of mouth for a total of 17. Looks like Nissan spoke a bit hastily about this being a very isolated problem... unless, of course, they mean pretty much isolated to Phoenix. :x
 
You need to use only the number of cars in the phoenix area or your statistic is essentially meaningless in this context. And there are likely more in Phoenix than 17 since not everyone is on this board and reporting...

OrientExpress said:
17 cars out of a population of 25000 is .00068. That is more than 3 standard deviations from the mean, or in layman's terms, an edge case.
 
OrientExpress said:
17 cars out of a population of 25000 is .00068. That is more than 3 standard deviations from the mean, or in layman's terms, an edge case.
Actually, we are talking about 17 cars out of a population of perhaps 500 cars (just guessing, don't know exact number) in Phoenix (3%). Also, note that the reports have all been over a period of about 6 weeks. There is every indication that more will be reported in Phoenix over the next several months. Also, for every one that is reported there are probably several more that have lost a capacity bar, but the owner doesn't know or doesn't post on this forum. You seem to be purposely ignoring that the problem has only been observed in very hot climates. You can't use the thousands of cars in cooler environments in the denominator, since no one ever said those cars were having a problem.
 
17 cars out of forum reports from Phoenix is a huge number.. right now I would be interested in hearing from other Phoenix owners with NO degradation.
 
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