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RegGuheert
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:42 am

OrientExpress wrote:
Accelerated vs. Nissans claim of 80% capacity after 5 years.
And there is nothing so far in any of the concerns expressed in this thread (or any other), other than speculation to suggest otherwise.
You act as if we have somehow collectively imagined that these cars have lost capacity. We have not imagined anything. Nissan has STATED that the cars with one missing bar have lost 15% of their capacity due to usage or aging. Nissan has STATED that the cars with two missing bars have lost 21.25% of their capacity due to usage or aging.

Here is what the 2011 LEAF Owner's Manual Revised says on page 2-10:
2011 LEAF Owner's Manual Revised wrote:LI-ION BATTERY CAPACITY LEVEL GAUGE
This gauge indicates the amount of charge the Li-ion battery is capable of storing.
When the capacity of the Li-ion battery decreases with age and usage, the level of the gauge will also decrease.
So the question becomes "How much does it decrease?" Nissan provides us with the answer to that question on page MWI-23 of the LEAF Service Manual: Revision Unknown. Please note that this information is NOT in the version of the Service Manual that I have, but assumedly it was in a different version. Here is a link to the Wiki with a chart that apparently came from some version of the 2011 LEAF Service Manual. Can someone please tell us what version that is from?

So, is the Li-ion battery capacity level gauge level a function of temperature? Not according to Nissan. Here is what they say on page MWI-24 of the 2011 Nissan LEAF Service Manual, Revision April 2011:
2011 Nissan LEAF Service Manual: Revision April 2011 wrote:Li-ion battery capacity level gauge is immune to temperature change.
The point is that all of this information came from Nissan and some cars are apparently indicating 2 bars missing.

OTOH, there is also this statement on page EV-3 of the 2011 LEAF Owners's Manual Revised:
2011 LEAF Owners's Manual Revised wrote:The capacity of the Li-ion battery in your vehicle to hold a charge will, like all such batteries, decrease with time and usage. As the battery ages and capacity decreases, this will result in a decrease from the vehicle's initial mileage range. This is normal, expected, and not indicative of any defect in your Li-ion battery. NISSAN estimates that battery capacity will be approximately 80% of original capacity after five years, although this is only an estimate, and this percentage may vary (and could be significantly lower) depending on individual vehicle and Li-ion battery usage.
Emphasis mine. Note that this statement was also in the original manuals that came with our cars.

The point is that the capacity losses are real according to Nissan, but their response is that they are normal. What seems to be missing in all this is that Phoenix owners were never told that they should ALL expect for that bolded section to apply directly to their car. Caveat emptor at its best if you ask me.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
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OrientExpress
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:03 am

RegGuheert:

I think you answered your own question, there is no conspiracy or problem here, it is well known that battery capacity does go down over time, and Nissan as are other manufacturers quite upfront and clear about this.

Would it be nice if everything lasted forever? Of course, but in reality, that is not the case. Is the saying "Your Mileage may vary" valid? Sure it is.

At the end of the day, the LEAFs that are in operation in hot weather (and the others in less harsh environments) all over the world, including Phoenix, continue to operate well, they start up every morning, they take their drivers where they need to go, they don't stall in the middle of the road, and all of their systems continue to operate as advertised and claimed by their manufacturers.
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Stoaty
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:20 am

OrientExpress wrote:I think you answered your own question, there is no conspiracy or problem here, it is well known that battery capacity does go down over time, and Nissan as are other manufacturers quite upfront and clear about this.
How much is Nissan paying you for writing this fluff instead of discussing the legitimate problems of those in very hot climates?
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OrientExpress
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:26 am

1.
Last edited by OrientExpress on Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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TomT
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:39 am

I have to side with everyone else on this one. Calling names and making innuendos will not make what appears to be a real and significant issue go away...
OrientExpress wrote:How much are the oil companies paying you to demonize EVs?
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Herm
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:40 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Herm wrote:
Since the average temperature in Phoenix is 82° F then that battery will last a bit more than 5 years. More if Nissan tweaked the electrolyte.
but spends over 14 hours a day in summer at 100+ which probably will bring it back under 5 years. wondering what Nissan will do when the first pack hits 70%? by that time, packs from TN should be plentiful
An average is an average, non-linear cell degradation is another issue. It takes a while for the pack temps to go up once the day starts to heat up. Surprised no one has instrumented the battery case to measure the temperature.. I bet outside case temp closely tracks inner cell temps.

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-temperatu ... ure+sensor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Stoaty
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:48 am

OrientExpress wrote:How much are the oil companies paying you to demonize EVs?
There is a difference between demonizing and pointing out legitimate problems. I strongly support EVs, but I don't owe blind loyalty to a particular manufacturer. The issue here is that Nissan apparently knew about this problem and didn't disclose it. That gives Nissan a bit of a black eye in my opinion. Given the available data, I won't currently recommend anyone who lives in a very hot climate to buy a Nissan Leaf (leasing would be fine). Sticking our heads in the sand isn't going to make this problem go away.

I hope Nissan will step up to the plate the way GM did about a non-issue (Volt battery fire). They offered to buy back a Volt from anyone who was concerned. This strong stance caused the concerns to melt away, and the Volt is doing fine with sales. I don't know exactly what Nissan should do, but I think they ought to put out this "fire" before it goes any further.
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OrientExpress
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:10 am

The issue here is that Nissan apparently knew about this problem and didn't disclose it.
Therein lies the disconnect. Diminished Battery capacity over time is a known characteristic of all batteries, not a problem, as in a manufacturing or design problem, which is what is alluded to here.

Nissan and all manufacturers of EVs know that over time the capacity of the batteries that power their cars will diminish, and are quite transparent about communicating that with the general public. As you know almost as much space in the owners manuals is devoted to this issue as how to wear seat belts and use airbags. It is a issue that Nissan goes above and beyond to communicate and explain to the owners of their cars, because it is unique to EVs.

Can anyone predict with absolute confidence how slowly or rapidly that will occur, no, because there are too many environmental variables to factor in.

These are the facts, and that is that.
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shrink
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:25 am

OrientExpress wrote: At the end of the day, the LEAFs that are in operation in hot weather (and the others in less harsh environments) all over the world, including Phoenix, continue to operate well.
Yeah, they just don't go as far as similarly aged LEAFs in cooler climates. How about we switch cars or battery packs at the end of the summer this year? I only have 10,000 miles on mine. Sounds like a win-win for you.
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edatoakrun
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:36 am

drees wrote:
GerryAZ wrote:I have recorded charging energy from shutdown to 100% several times over the past year and have not seen a significant decrease.
This is really the best way to measure capacity - a discharge/range test and a charge test (measure full charge energy). It could be more reliable than the GID as the GID is likely compensated by some unknown factors.

A discharge test would be done over a known loop which is easy to repeat and preferably done down to at least VLBW if not turtle. Before the test, charge to 100%...

A charge test would drain the battery to LBW, VLBW or turtle and then record the amount of energy it takes to charge back up to 100%...
Or just use Carwings Electricity Consumption kWh use report for the same test loop.

More accurate, IMO, as the recharge will probably not be to exactly the same capacity level.

My own capacity test here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 52#p207152" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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