How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

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IMHO, you are taking a "head in the sand" approach to this. 15-20% capacity loss in one year is in no way gradual, accept perhaps by legal definition. It matters very little what the legal definition is, because regardless of what gradual actually is, 20% in one year is unacceptable and will/is leading to a dramatic double take by owners on their opinion of the brand. As stoaty said, Nissan needs to step up to the plate and deal with this and not just say "it's normal". If by normal they mean expected, then clearly they failed to communicate realistic expectations to buyers. If they didn't know this was going to happen then they failed to adequately test before marketing. Either way, they need to make this feel good for folks or they will loose a lot of their fan club. GM succeeded in containing the damage by the way they handled the Volt fires, Nissan is not succeeding with their current approach. Nissan must define what more than "gradual" is, make it reasonable and define the thresholds for warranty replacement. They could sweeten the pot by saying if the battery fails prematurely and has not been abused, then it will be replaced with second generation heat resistant batteries from the Smyrna plant. knowing that there is a safety net and that one might even end up ahead of the game, is what will quell the anxiety. I think most of us are up for some unexpected bumps in the road, we just want to make sure we are not going to get screwed!

OrientExpress said:
The issue here is that Nissan apparently knew about this problem and didn't disclose it.

Therein lies the disconnect. Diminished Battery capacity over time is a known characteristic of all batteries, not a problem, as in a manufacturing or design problem, which is what is alluded to here.

Nissan and all manufacturers of EVs know that over time the capacity of the batteries that power their cars will diminish, and are quite transparent about communicating that with the general public. As you know almost as much space in the owners manuals is devoted to this issue as how to wear seat belts and use airbags. It is a issue that Nissan goes above and beyond to communicate and explain to the owners of their cars, because it is unique to EVs.

Can anyone predict with absolute confidence how slowly or rapidly that will occur, no, because there are too many environmental variables to factor in.

These are the facts, and that is that.
 
OrientExpress said:
I also see a lot of speculation, innuendo, armchair quarterbacking, and accusations flying back and forth, but what I don't see is an actual problem.
As far as I can tell, you are the only one who doesn't see the problem, except Nissan... and no, I do not live in a hot area and don't have a problem myself.
 
Stoaty said:
As far as I can tell, you are the only one who doesn't see the problem, except Nissan... and no, I do not live in a hot area and don't have a problem myself.

To add to the speculation I'm sure Nissan is well aware of what's going on and is determining if these cases are real problems and as they are collecting data and researching I'm sure they are planning their strategy on how to respond. I expect a similar response as we got about the initial AC related recall. This one is probably going to take longer to figure out and develop a plan. At this point I bet they are getting enough detailed data out of the battery reports to do a lot of research. It would surprise me if end up wanting to see some of the packs for more analysis.

Also I think a lot of their response is going to depend on what happens next with these lost capacity bars and also why exactly they are being lost and how many are degrading this quickly.

With how much reassuring we've gotten from Nissan about the useful life of these packs I expect they are going to do the right thing when it really comes down to it. In the mean time we have to collect as much of our own data and try to have some patience as the people who are actually in the know figure things out. Have to remember Nissan is a big corporation and so its hard from them to be completely transparent and up front since that could get them a lot of bad PR for something that turns out to be a minor issue that they can easily fix. I would guess they are waiting to publicly address this until they have all the information/research and a plan.

I find it hard to believe that Nissan expected this to happen and the people that are sayings it is normal are likely not the engineers on the inside of Nissan.

If we've learned anything from the mostly minor issues people have had with their LEAFS so far Nissan engineers are watching these problems like a hawk. They are continuing to invest lots of engineering into it so I think it's fair to try and be as patient as possible since it's still very early.

This makes me really really want a LEAFScan right now, hopefully they are getting close to ready as I don't want a gidmeter and LEAFScan.
 
OrientExpress said:
I also see a lot of speculation, innuendo, armchair quarterbacking, and accusations flying back and forth, but what I don't see is an actual problem.

Then why don't you switch cars with one of the owners here who has lost a capacity bar? Or we can just wait until mine loses one this summer and then make the switch.

I don't see a problem.
 
QueenBee said:
Have to remember Nissan is a big corporation and so its hard from them to be completely transparent and up front since that could get them a lot of bad PR for something that turns out to be a minor issue that they can easily fix. I would guess they are waiting to publicly address this until they have all the information/research and a plan.

Nissan, like many Japanese corporations, have a strong tendency to not want to pass bad news up the chain of command. It's just part of their management culture. If there is any silence from Nissan on this issue, it's possible it is for that reason.

There's also the possibility that they are well aware of their battery technology shortcomings, but aren't going to do anything to address them.
 
Nissan, like many Japanese corporations, have a strong tendency to not want to pass bad news up the chain of command. It's just part of their management culture. If there is any silence from Nissan on this issue, it's possible it is for that reason.

I doubt it, This board is read by individuals at many levels of management at Nissan both here and in Japan.
 
With how much reassuring we've gotten from Nissan about the useful life of these packs I expect they are going to do the right thing when it really comes down to it. In the mean time we have to collect as much of our own data and try to have some patience as the people who are actually in the know figure things out. Have to remember Nissan is a big corporation and so its hard from them to be completely transparent and up front since that could get them a lot of bad PR for something that turns out to be a minor issue that they can easily fix. I would guess they are waiting to publicly address this until they have all the information/research and a plan.

I find it hard to believe that Nissan expected this to happen and the people that are sayings it is normal are likely not the engineers on the inside of Nissan.

If we've learned anything from the mostly minor issues people have had with their LEAFS so far Nissan engineers are watching these problems like a hawk. They are continuing to invest lots of engineering into it so I think it's fair to try and be as patient as possible since it's still very early.

This is exactly what is happening. If there turns out that there is actually an issue, I am confident that Nissan will fix it. In the mean time, I would encourage everyone to take a chill pill and let things work themselves out.
 
OrientExpress said:
If there turns out that there is actually an issue, I am confident that Nissan will fix it. In the mean time, I would encourage everyone to take a chill pill and let things work themselves out.

I would hope that they do, but since battery capacity is not covered under the warranty, they really don't have to do anything. Owners who have lost capacity bars, some even after a perfect battery check-up, have been told it's normal. People keep saying Nissan "will do the right thing" but that is pure speculation. Loss of capacity bars is fact.

Do you think anyone in Phoenix would have bought the car if they were informed you can lose up to 20% of the capacity of the first year? (I'm basing the 20% on reports of 2 capacity bars lost). No one expected loss of capacity that fast. No one.

For the non-enthusiast, Nissan is selling a $40,000 car (that is what it costs in AZ with taxes) that goes 100 miles, but really only goes 72 miles based on driving style and conditions, etc. But, you shouldn't charge to 100% if you want your battery to last, so you shouldn't really drive 72 miles regularly - maybe 50-60 miles; oh, but don't run the A/C or heat too much; and don't drive too fast on the highway. Better make that 50 miles. Oh and even if you charge to 80%, since the desert heat is a tough on batteries, you might lose 20% of your battery capacity after about a year. So just drive 40 miles. You might not qualify for the $7500 tax credit, but if you do, you have to wait a year to get it. At least it doesn't use gas, right?

If first capacity bar was lost after 3 years; maybe even 2 or 2-1/2, few would complain. Losing capacity this fast after 1-year is very concerning and you are completely out of touch for telling people who spent $40,000 on a car that loses battery capacity this fast to "take a chill pill."
 
Wouldn't it be nice if you could withhold 15-20% of your monthly payment since you're no longer getting what you paid for? Wishful thinking I know.

As a potential (very likely) 2013 6.6 Leaf customer I'm really discouraged by these posts. I hope Nissan builds a better battery pack and adds TMS. And, they better fix these current Leaf's or loose the support from all the early adopters. It's amazing how fast this is happening. Just a few weeks ago the OP, RegGuheert, was getting blasted for creating this thread because there were "only 5". Now there's 18 owners that have posted here from two states :( No way of knowing what Nissan knows or how many owners haven't discovered the forum yet. If heat is the main cause I bet we'll see problems in South Florida, Louisiana and anywhere else it gets hot. Probably not as severe as the AZ folks but still capacity losses earlier than expected. Very bad news for EV and I hope Nissan gets it fixed.

OrientExpress said:
shrink said:
OrientExpress said:
At the end of the day, the LEAFs that are in operation in hot weather (and the others in less harsh environments) all over the world, including Phoenix, continue to operate well.

Yeah, they just don't go as far as similarly aged LEAFs in cooler climates. How about we switch cars or battery packs at the end of the summer this year? I only have 10,000 miles on mine. Sounds like a win-win for you.

sure, come on by, and we will put the cars up on blocks and switch them out. :)
Actually, I bet you'll find lots of takers on that offer. Swapping packs at the dealer is way less than the ~$10K that a new pack would cost. So yes, I'm sure you'll suffer from this "non-issue and innuendo" soon enough.

I really don't get how you can say this isn't an issue? Two people (IIRC) in this thread posted an actual loss of miles driven (not the GOM). Do you only drive a few miles per day? Wouldn't a 15-20% range hit hurt? Folks are locked in to their Leaf's and will probably suffer monetarily if they try to get out.
 
3 bars is 30% degradation, the point considered the end of the battery pack.. suppose Nissan warrants that for 5 years?

Would you guys be satisfied with that?
 
I really don't get how you can say this isn't an issue?

I can say that because everything that I have seen here completely antidotal, and essentially subjective laypersons interpretation.

If there is an issue, those that are qualified to make that assessment will do so.
 
OrientExpress said:
I really don't get how you can say this isn't an issue?

I can say that because everything that I have seen here completely antidotal, and essentially subjective laypersons interpretation.

If there is an issue, those that are qualified to make that assessment will do so.
The loss of a capacity bar isn't anecdotal/from a subjective layperson. It's from the car itself. The behavior is documented in the service manual. The table http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery,_Charging_System#Battery_Capacity_Behavior" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; supposedly came from the service manual.

If you really think it's a non-issue, you should really swap cars w/someone in Phoenix who has lost 1 (or better yet, 2) capacity bars.
 
cwerdna said:
OrientExpress said:
I really don't get how you can say this isn't an issue?

I can say that because everything that I have seen here completely antidotal, and essentially subjective laypersons interpretation.

If there is an issue, those that are qualified to make that assessment will do so.
The loss of a capacity bar isn't anecdotal/from a subjective layperson. It's from the car itself. The behavior is documented in the service manual. The table http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery,_Charging_System#Battery_Capacity_Behavior" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; supposedly came from the service manual.
And, it's documented by folks who's range has already been shortened. It's not anecdotal when there's actual proof.
 
Since no one has yet seen that 20-30% degradation yet, there is not yet a reason for Nissan to act. Based on the reports so far we can speculate add to when Phoenicians will see that additional bar disappear and I might think that those might correlate about the same time the first batch of batteries from Tennessee arrive on the market
 
QueenBee said:
To add to the speculation I'm sure Nissan is well aware of what's going on and is determining if these cases are real problems and as they are collecting data and researching I'm sure they are planning their strategy on how to respond. I expect a similar response as we got about the initial AC related recall. . . . . . . . . snip
AC reall ?!? . . . . did I miss something ?!?

what AC recall?

.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Since no one has yet seen that 20-30% degradation yet, there is not yet a reason for Nissan to act.
That isn't entirely true, as there are two Leafs reported to have lost 2 bars (=21.25% capacity loss). Granted these are not as solid as the ones reported as happening to forum members, but still something to consider.
 
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