How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Palm Springs CA , average temp 100+ had the leaf since september 11, 4300 miles, since the (very) hot weather 108 last week, i have been getting 9 bars on 80% charge (was 10) and 11 on 100% (was 12) My garage is hot, no a/c in there, wondering if it will go back to normal when the weather cools down?
Also with a/c about 50 miles on 80% and 60 on 100%
Not panicking yet, but not over the moon with the results.
Average 3.5kwh
 
Ambient temperatures, by definition (what I looked up) would be the temperature of the surrounding environment.

The heat coming off the pavement in summer in Phoenix is way more than 120 degrees. It is close to 150 when the temps are over 100. Temps of 110 will yield about 155-160 on blacktop. On concrete, about 140 degrees That temperature of the "surrounding environment" near the battery, my guess, would be more than 120 degrees. Maybe not for 24 hours but certainly for most of the daylight hours.

The battery packs sit very close to the surface. On the road, I would imagine the temps near the battery would remain near 145-150 or so when it's over 100 degrees (especially when it approaches 105-110. Sitting in a parking lot, I would guess the temps cool somewhat the longer that backtop is shaded by the vehicle.
 
djchrispaul said:
Palm Springs CA , average temp 100+ had the leaf since september 11, 4300 miles, since the (very) hot weather 108 last week, i have been getting 9 bars on 80% charge (was 10) and 11 on 100% (was 12) My garage is hot, no a/c in there, wondering if it will go back to normal when the weather cools down?
Also with a/c about 50 miles on 80% and 60 on 100%
Not panicking yet, but not over the moon with the results.
Average 3.5kwh
Click to expand...

Can you clarify whether you lost one of the 'capacity' bars, which are the colored bars to the right of the SOC meter? If so, do your normally charge to 100% or 80%?
 
TNleaf said:
So, Phoenix was not 120F, so your warranty shouldn't be voided. I 100% agree there. However, from the information Nissan provided, one could come to the conclusion that the high temperatures are directly causing the accelerated degradation (I know this isn't new knowledge at all). So then what is the issue? Nissan had provided that information. The fact that users that have experienced temperatures close to the warranty cutoff have experienced a loss in capacity already shouldn't come as a surprise.
Click to expand...

Not quite...If that all was the case, Nissan should not have sold cars in Arizona (or any other hot climate).
Selling a product in definitely hostile environment for it is deceiving, especially if such a product is normally considered a "durable" good (which it turns out is not the case for a LEAF in AZ), and especially if you knew about it.
The very fact that they sold the LEAFs in Arizona gave customers the feeling that it was ok.
I think this has nothing to do with denial.
 
Train said:
The battery packs sit very close to the surface. On the road, I would imagine the temps near the battery would remain near 145-150 or so when it's over 100 degrees (especially when it approaches 105-110. Sitting in a parking lot, I would guess the temps cool somewhat the longer that backtop is shaded by the vehicle.
Click to expand...
1

Before insinuating anything, you might want to check the battery temperature gauge on the Wiki. I believe that owners from Phoenix typically see six bars in the morning, and seven bars in the afternoon. Eight bars were seen after a quick charge, and perhaps also during the heat wave last year?

This implies that the battery temperature is typically somewhere between 98 and 120 F during the summer. As I mentioned before, I would expect battery temps to follow the ambient fairly closely. Vehicle operation can add about 5 degrees, and level 2 charging about 10 degrees on average. And this waste heat can take several hours to dissipate.

The effects of solar loading and radiant heat from the pavement are unclear, and difficult to estimate without an accurate temperature gauge. Judging from owner reports, I would be surprised if these two factors pushed the pack more than 15 degrees above ambient. It's likely a delta of 5 to 10 degrees, perhaps even less than that.
 
djchrispaul said:
Palm Springs CA , average temp 100+ had the leaf since september 11, 4300 miles, since the (very) hot weather 108 last week, i have been getting 9 bars on 80% charge (was 10) and 11 on 100% (was 12) My garage is hot, no a/c in there, wondering if it will go back to normal when the weather cools down?
Also with a/c about 50 miles on 80% and 60 on 100%
Not panicking yet, but not over the moon with the results.
Average 3.5kwh
Click to expand...
How do you quantify those miles........ Miles driven + GOM? Miles to the low battery warnings? Or actual miles to Turtle?

Or is that the miles shown after charging?
 
hill said:
I'd be curious to know how many of the 3 to 10 AZ Leafs displaying inordinate capacity losses are getting 5 miles per kWh at the wall, versus 2. Or would those having large losses not be comfortable disclosing that.
Click to expand...

Not uncomfortable at all - the more we share the more we learn.
 

Attachments

  • efficiency.jpg
    efficiency.jpg
    48.2 KB · Views: 43
zarwin said:
Maybe I missed a reference to this, but here is a DOE presentation discussing thermal impact on Li-ion batteries, and they use Phoenix as a data point:
1

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/thermoelectrics_app_2012/wednesday/cunningham.pdf
Click to expand...
Great, report! This seems to be based on the data from NREL, which we discussed on the forum at some length already. One thing to note here is that the studies used different cell chemistry (NCA graphite vs LMO) and different form factor (18650 cylindrical vs prismatic pouch cells). Additionally, it looks like all of the NREL studies were simulating plugin-hybrid vehicles, not pure electrics. As a result, the cells were running a much harsher cycle with peak current load up to 10C, which accelerates aging. These studies are valuable and interesting, but it's not quite an apples-to-apples comparison when we try to apply the published results to the Leaf.
 
Charging, normally 80% with 100% only every now and then, no more than twice a month.

Miles + GOM is how i determine it, i can see the difference although it may not be super accurate, its a fairly good guess based on daily driving, and what I am used to seeing.

Yes i have lost a bar on the readout to the right of the GOM. both on 100% (11) and 80% (9)

I wonder if its just not fully charging because of the ambient temp in my garage which is bloody hot!

I charge between midnight and 6am.

I'll continue to monitor but its getting hotter by the day here in Palm Springs and will be until October.
 
djchrispaul said:
Yes i have lost a bar on the readout to the right of the GOM. both on 100% (11) and 80% (9)
Click to expand...
1

Thank you for confirming that. Would you be able to say if it was the gauge on the very right (14) or the one closer to the GOM (13)?

capacitygauge
 
surfingslovak said:
djchrispaul said:
Yes i have lost a bar on the readout to the right of the GOM. both on 100% (11) and 80% (9)
Click to expand...
1

Thank you for confirming that. Would you be able to say if it was the gauge on the very right (14) or the one closer to the GOM (13)?

capacitygauge
Click to expand...

The bars closer to the GOM, 13 in your pic.

Are people losing a bar from the far right 14 on your pic? Maybe thats what i should watch for, as i said i wonder if its just stopping short because of high temps, but the car has only 4300 miles since september, I think Palm Springs match Phoenix temps.
 
djchrispaul said:
surfingslovak said:
djchrispaul said:
Yes i have lost a bar on the readout to the right of the GOM. both on 100% (11) and 80% (9)
Click to expand...
1

Thank you for confirming that. Would you be able to say if it was the gauge on the very right (14) or the one closer to the GOM (13)?

capacitygauge
Click to expand...

The bars closer to the GOM, 13 in your pic.

Are people losing a bar from the far right 14 on your pic? Maybe thats what i should watch for, as i said i wonder if its just stopping short because of high temps, but the car has only 4300 miles since september, I think Palm Springs match Phoenix temps.
Click to expand...
Yes, look at the bars on the far right. Check out his thread:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=207847#p207847" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Before insinuating anything, you might want to check the battery temperature gauge on the Wiki. I believe that owners from Phoenix typically see six bars in the morning, and seven bars in the afternoon. Eight bars were seen after a quick charge, and perhaps also during the heat wave last year?

This implies that the battery temperature is typically somewhere between 98 and 120 F during the summer. As I mentioned before, I would expect battery temps to follow the ambient fairly closely. Vehicle operation can add about 5 degrees, and level 2 charging about 10 degrees on average. And this waste heat can take several hours to dissipate.

The effects of solar loading and radiant heat from the pavement are unclear, and difficult to estimate without an accurate temperature gauge. Judging from owner reports, I would be surprised if these two factors pushed the pack more than 15 degrees above ambient. It's likely a delta of 5 to 10 degrees, perhaps even less than that.
Click to expand...

I'm just stating what the air and ambient temperatures are in Phoenix in the summer and that perhaps the temps near the battery may reach 120 degrees.
 
djchrispaul said:
I charge between midnight and 6am.

I'll continue to monitor but its getting hotter by the day here in Palm Springs and will be until October.
Click to expand...
I recommend using just the end timer set to 6a. No start time.

If the garage is connected I would be considering leaving the door open to the house at night. Kinda negates the safety code of the door being shut but still.
 
smkettner said:
djchrispaul said:
I charge between midnight and 6am.

I'll continue to monitor but its getting hotter by the day here in Palm Springs and will be until October.
Click to expand...
I recommend using just the end timer set to 6a. No start time.

If the garage is connected I would be considering leaving the door open to the house at night. Kinda negates the safety code of the door being shut but still.
Click to expand...
Good point to leave the door open. Also my battery temp guage is at 6 when i drive out in the morning and easily gets to 7.
 
Stoaty said:
Here is a prescient post from 2010 by Darryl Siry (formerly with Tesla):

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Click to expand...
Oh, man, that article will get the class-action sharks salivating, just itching to get into discovery. Mark Perry seems to be doing his usual PR dance.
 
Train said:
Ambient temperatures, by definition (what I looked up) would be the temperature of the surrounding environment.

The heat coming off the pavement in summer in Phoenix is way more than 120 degrees. It is close to 150 when the temps are over 100. Temps of 110 will yield about 155-160 on blacktop. On concrete, about 140 degrees That temperature of the "surrounding environment" near the battery, my guess, would be more than 120 degrees. Maybe not for 24 hours but certainly for most of the daylight hours.

The battery packs sit very close to the surface. On the road, I would imagine the temps near the battery would remain near 145-150 or so when it's over 100 degrees (especially when it approaches 105-110. Sitting in a parking lot, I would guess the temps cool somewhat the longer that backtop is shaded by the vehicle.
Click to expand...
Further to this, I have some data from the 1940s in the Ca. desert, i.e not on blacktop or concrete, that tends to confirm your suspicions:

Temp at 5 feet, 125 deg. F (standard height where official temp readings are taken)
Temp at 1 foot, 150 deg. F
Temp at 1 inch, 165 deg. F
Temp at ground, 180 deg. F.

I don't have the Leaf's ground clearance handy, but the temp at 1 foot would be the most appropriate to use. Anyway, this just confirms why we used to recommend that our AE customers in hot climates bury the battery pack well below grade on the north side of a building, if they couldn't keep it in a temperature-controlled room.
 
djchrispaul said:
Are people losing a bar from the far right 14 on your pic? Maybe thats what i should watch for, as i said i wonder if its just stopping short because of high temps, but the car has only 4300 miles since september, I think Palm Springs match Phoenix temps.
Click to expand...
Palm Springs is hotter than Phoenix by an average of 4 degrees according to weather.com.
 
drees said:
djchrispaul said:
Are people losing a bar from the far right 14 on your pic? Maybe thats what i should watch for, as i said i wonder if its just stopping short because of high temps, but the car has only 4300 miles since september, I think Palm Springs match Phoenix temps.
Click to expand...
Palm Springs is hotter than Phoenix by an average of 4 degrees according to weather.com.
Click to expand...
Oh great! That's all I need!
 

Similar threads

R
2017 Dark Blue Pearl Leaf
Replies
0
Views
245
RodA56
R
S
Charging tips from Nissan
Replies
0
Views
192
Sweetjan
S
P
Bargains on 2023 Leafs
Replies
18
Views
3K
duncan-s
duncan-s
Jnovoseljr
My EV Battery Life and Leaf observations.
Replies
10
Views
2K
GerryAZ
G
majbthrd
lowest mileage LEAF battery fail ever?
Replies
6
Views
1K
thew
thew

Latest posts

Back
Top