BC2BC Return Trip

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TonyWilliams said:
edatoakrun said:
And, with no demand charges with PG&E, an even better location for A DC site.

What do you base this statement on? Is there a specific rate plan that you are referring to?

Of course, it's no surprise that I am looking to find those logical places to put DC chargers with my company, Quick Charge Power. It's one of the many missions for this expedition.

Naturally, they must either make financial sense (few sites will, to be honest) or be subsidized in some way. No demand charges would go a long way to subsidize the cost, but I can't imagine the PG&E does not have them. I'm actually quite sure they do.

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but, as I have posted many times before:

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ERS.SHTML#ERS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See rates AI and A-6.

Both available for under 200 kW use, with no demand charges, which should allow up to several 50 kW DCs, as well as all other use, for the typical DC highway location, such as a restaurant or coffee shop.

IMO, TOU factors would indicate that site owners would probably want to offer TOU rates for L2, and definitely for DC.

And as I have also already mentioned, IMO, anyone seeking entry into the CA DC business should be looking at the Vacaville (Highest potential customer base in PG&E) area, as one of the locations, most likely to be among the first sites to be profitable.
 
edatoakrun said:
TonyWilliams said:
edatoakrun said:
And, with no demand charges with PG&E, an even better location for A DC site.

What do you base this statement on? Is there a specific rate plan that you are referring to?

Of course, it's no surprise that I am looking to find those logical places to put DC chargers with my company, Quick Charge Power. It's one of the many missions for this expedition.

Naturally, they must either make financial sense (few sites will, to be honest) or be subsidized in some way. No demand charges would go a long way to subsidize the cost, but I can't imagine the PG&E does not have them. I'm actually quite sure they do.

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but, as I have posted many times before:

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ERS.SHTML#ERS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See rates AI and A-6.

Both available for under 200 kW use, with no demand charges, which should allow up to several 50 kW DCs, as well as all other use, for the typical DC highway location, such as a restaurant or coffee shop.

IMO, TOU factors would indicate that site owners would probably want to offer TOU rates for L2, and definitely for DC.

And as I have also already mentioned, IMO, anyone seeking entry into the CA DC business should be looking at the Vacaville (PG&E) area, as one of the locations, most likely to be among the first sites to be profitable.

Coulomb is looking (logically) as I am at Vacaville. I did miss that info, as I don't read every single post here. Not even the majority of posts. I already spend too much time here!!!

Edit: I just read through a large number of the various rate schedules, and none of them mention "demand charges". That leads me to believe that these schedules don't tell the whole story (they don't include rates either), therefore I wouldn't be so brash to suggest that there are no demand fees. I just think the linked information doesn't cover it.
 
Breakfast was great ! Kim is the waitress/Jacqueline-of-all-Trades. "The chef ?" you ask ... if you're a Seinfeld fan ... it makes sense: PACO ! (This fact did not negatively impact the quality of the food ;) )

Tip for Kim: I did. And will buy and take home some of the olives later.

Wi-fi at BK across street.

I made it here (counter to my plan because I found two well-behaved trucks) on I-5 on cruise control (1st truck: 63-65, 2nd: 61-62) under perfect slipstreaming conditions. WARNING: do not attempt; if you do (!), liability and responsibility is all yours ! 69 miles, 65% SOC used. Calm/no crosswinds (which destroy the slipstream effect), cool (60F), sunny.

Will leave for Woodland when I have enough to do 84 miles (keep an eye on the cross-winds) and/or charging current starts to taper off. Depending on conditions I am apt to cancelling the back-roads plan ... we'll see.
 
LEAFer said:
Breakfast was great ! ...
I made it here (counter to my plan because I found two well-behaved trucks) on I-5 on cruise control (1st truck: 63-65, 2nd: 61-62) under perfect slipstreaming conditions...

I don't try that, for fear of (delicate aluminum) hood or windshield damage.

Not exactly sure what 65% SOC works out to, but that sounds very good. Could you say what you believe was your kWh use, or dash/nav m/kWh, for this drive?

I figured by your times that you must have have used a fairly large part of 100%.

You really think you "beat" driving ~45 mph, on either Rawson road or A8 (my route north) and old 99 from Red Bluff south, in total travel/charge time?
 
LEAFer said:
I made it here (counter to my plan because I found two well-behaved trucks) on I-5 on cruise control (1st truck: 63-65, 2nd: 61-62) under perfect slipstreaming conditions. WARNING: do not attempt; if you do (!), liability and responsibility is all yours !
"Don't try this yourself"... :eek:

But you did it anyway ;)

In someone else's car :)

And then told everyone about it :D

In writing! :lol:
 
!!! :shock: Yes .. yes I did. I am careful, but who isn't. No problems with any kind of damage. I do choose my trucks carefully and pay attention to road conditions. Another nice advantage with Tony's LEAF is that it has a continuous "wrap" (with all the promotional logo on top of it) on the most "sensitive" parts.

Some (preview) of the data:

D/A = Departure or Arrival
Time = Nissan "eye" (slow by a minute, I think)
Tmp = Nissan "eye"; inaccurate when rising quickly; "*" means corrected later to my guesstimate;
BTB = Nissan dash BatteryTempBars
SB = Nissan dash Bars (GOM)
GOM = GOM miles (D mode)
G# = gids, y'all know ;)
G% = LeafCAN SOC % (gids in % of 281)
miles = road miles traveled
EE = Average Energy Efficiency (dash) m/kWh (at arrival; reset prior to each departure)

Code:
Where       D/A  Time Tmp BTB SB GOM  G#   G% miles  EE
----------------------------------------------------------
Shasta Lake Dep 07:03 52F  6  12 114 278 98.9  
Orland      Arr 08:13 61F  6   3  29  98 34.9  67.3 4.8  Drafted on CC at 63-65/61-62; 
                                                         after restart: G# = 96
Orland      Dep 12:40 77F* 6  12 111 271 96.4            GOM=96@1st miles; (Tmp was 61F)
Woodland    Arr 14:13 77F  6   2  14  67 23.8  84.1 5.2  after restart: SB=1, G#=65; drafted on CC 57mph;
                                                         manually cycled A/C 25% of the miles
Not sure if the backroads (worse shape and also agricultural traffic and "stuff" on the road) would have been safer (damage) than drafting. Yes I could have gone 45mph there. But I try to use (and show) the LEAF as a "regular" car, at "regular" speeds, as regular as I can make it given the range limits where EVSEs are "rare". Ok ... so the speed limit is 70 ... but we know I can't do that on these stretches without the (worse) consequence of a tow truck.

I cycled the A/C manually; even though it was only 77, driving south 12N-2pm with the huge windshield causes a lot of solar heating. The A/C was drawing only 4-5amps extra on top of 22-26amps (without A/C) on flat stretches from Orland to Woodland drafting at 57 with CruiseControl.

I left Orland 40+ minutes late, not because I wanted a "full" charge, but because at the last minute prior to planned departure Jack W. (owner) came over and we had some lively discussion. Jack W. earned a T-Shirt. So, Tony, expect a call from "both Jacks" ...
 
I left Woodland early to beat the worst of the traffic, knowing I could not make it home. But I beat the traffic :D

So I stopped south of the worst traffic congestion ... the Elk Grove Nissan Dealer ... for almost 1 hour. They took photos, and I explained the "story" behind the "colorful" car :) Might see something on their facebook page soon.

With enough to make it home on VLBW I took off from Elk Grove ... but turned the tracker off some time prior to my last and final leg. Made it home with 24 gids by 6pm for a home-cooked meal almost ( I was early ) ready. Official data reporting for Tuesday will end with the Elk Grove Nissan dealer.

Time for dinner. :cool:

More info soon ...
 
I've updated my post on the first page with the stats from the Shoreline to Portland jaunt and am working on a trip report... though compared to what Leafer is pulling of, it is a drop in the bucket, GO LEAFER!
 
(OLD content: Since GaslessInSeattle just made a post about a future trip report I may as well do the same. He can edit/use above, I'll "reserve" and use this one (keeping them closer together). I will edit OP later to link here so the pertinent info can be more easily found in the future as the thread gets longer.)

My Trip Report: BC2BC Return: Portland, OR to Sacramento, CA to Home (630 miles) June 24 - 26, 2012

NOTE: For real data-hounds I uploaded the XLS to GoogleDocs HERE.
Note 2: Not included are about 65 miles June 27 visiting SMUD, and 50 miles June 28 to hand LEAF to driver #3 in Davis.


I have duplicated GaslessInSeattle's data, since he was the first driver and handed me the data-logging sheets.

The return journey started on Sunday 6/24/2012 in Shoreline, GaslessInSeattle driving Tony's LEAF, and carrying one passenger. JohnnySeebring had departed in his LEAF for Portland the day before, and overnighted there to get "GasLess" and passenger back home. They arrived in Portland at Electric Avenue early, meeting Johnny, then drove both LEAFs to meet me at Amtrak PDX Union Station. I had arrived 35 minutes early. We chatted some, tried (unsuccessfully) to find Tony's AV-FOB and other EVSE station RFID cards. I ended up borrowing GaslessInSeattle's AV-FOB, and took off for Electric Avenue a little early. I made Electric Avenue my 16:00 departure point after parking there for a few minutes for photos.
bc2bcreturndata01.jpg

After leaving Electric Avenue, Tony called back with his "hiding spot" for all the cards/AV-FOB. Since QCs every 25miles are so FAST(!), I decided to stop in Salem for 1hour L2, not only for a boost, but for enough time for a "real" dinner. Note: Each QC I used I stopped manually with the Stop Button on the AV station, to meet my desired target SOC.
bc2bcreturndata02.jpg

Overnighted at Oakland (Rice Hill) Motel 6, where DC QC is located. Tried to do a timer charge (7am end time) to 80%, since next day would be frequent QCs. I authorized with the AV-FOB around 22:30. The timed charge FAILED ! I suspect the authorization may have expired at midnite or after the car was not drawing power for some time. Caught the error in time to do a QC in the morning (Monday 6/25) prior to 7am departure from 14 (GOM) to 44 (GOM).
bc2bcreturndata03.jpg

Back in the little quaint town of Wolf Creek I located the PostOffice and mailed back GasLess's AV FOB. The two postal workers there had heard of the Mexico-to-Canada trip (northbound) on the news; they couldn't believe I was QC'ing nearby ! At the next stop, Grants Pass, I arrived with a relatively high SOC (52%) so I skipped the QC and L2'ed instead to minimize battery heating, while staying on the originally planned stops & schedule. In Ashland (below) I finally saw the effect of battery heating. Naturally, I could have skipped every 2nd QC, but my belief is it would have heated the battery more due to the larger total depth-of-charge/discharge.
bc2bcreturndata04.jpg

As you can see above, despite the elevations to cover, I arrived an hour earlier than even my optimistic plan. Due to the fact that I was now entering the Slow-L2-Land of California (!) I relied heavily on drafting trucks (please see cautions in other posts). I did not need to do that in the Fast-QC-Land of Oregon. I had simply driven Tony's LEAF like any other car right near the speed limit (except the last 10 miles before Halsey, and except between Wolf Creek & Grants Pass).
bc2bcreturndata05.jpg

I had originally (reluctantly) planned to use the backroads, despite my misgivings about the LEAF showing as a "weak EV" effect. But the experience of drafting prior to Shasta Lake, as well as prior experience in other EVs, convinced me the LEAF is a good drafting candidate. As you can see above, the flat stretch from Orland to Woodland (84 miles) was most interesting. The light tail wind did not amount to much, but at least it wasn't a cross-wind, which tends to play havoc with slipstreaming, and I was using A/C. Although I recorded 56mph, I know the (conservative) speedometer read 57 most of the time. The key data point, however, is the EE = 5.2. Per Tony's charts this is the equivalent of going 45mpg without any "help". The LeafCAN helped a lot with its real-time display of amps from the battery to optimize the distance from the truck (semi-safe, and energy conservation).

Elevation Charts: These are shown as I originally compiled them during trip planning. I did not actually stop at Woodburn, and in Salem I decided to go to the Nissan Dealer instead. Mount Shasta KOA was changed to Dunsmuir RailRoad RV Park. The first one is an overview of Portland to Ashland with subsequently more detail.

The charts show some of the "challenges". But, as we now know, in QC-land these "challenges" are easy-peasy. Not so south of Ashland, OR !

elev00portlandtoashland.jpg

elev01portlandtohalsey.jpg

elev02halseytooakland.jpg

elev03oaklandtoashland.jpg

elev04ashland2redding.jpg
 
edatoakrun said:
You really think you "beat" driving ~45 mph, on either Rawson road or A8 (my route north) and old 99 from Red Bluff south, in total travel/charge time?
I just took another look at Tony's Range Chart (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) ... and so ... yes, I think I did beat it. Because (looking at the chart), at the speeds I was going while drafting from Orland to Woodland (57mph), I basically achieved an EE of 5.2 which on his chart is 45mph equivalent back-roads travel.

On the Shasta Lake to Orland section (EE = 4.8): it's not flat, so the same analogy with the range chart data is harder.

Keep in mind too though, I was driving smooth/continuous. Driving the backroads (old 99 you mentioned, etc) would incur quite a few stop signs (at every I-5 exit, +others), right ? ( I haven't done it, you have. ) Depending on the efficiency of the regen, this may degrade my gains from the lower speed.

(Again) I am not advocating LEAF owners draft trucks on a regular basis. Find yourself a better alternative to conserving energy. If you find yourself at the edge of your range capability on a regular basis, then either the LEAF is not right tool for the job, or you are doing something wrong in terms of energy efficiency (speeding ? etc., ?).

And note: I am *not* critical of Ed's backroads approach ... just want to add more info. The backroads approach is valid, and I have done it before for my own purposes to extend my range in order to reach my destination. But this trip in this particular (highly-visible) LEAF is different. As I learned after picking it up in Portland ... it gets a *lot* of looks. It is not your ordinary LEAF, due to all the graphics pasted all over it.

My desire was to show the LEAF on I-5 as an (almost) regular car (within its range limits - finding the next EVSE) while doing a road trip. Of course people along the way asked me how often I have to stop and for how long and whether I felt inconvenienced by this. I answered truthfully that it's not ideal for roadtrips in California, but if their roadtripping is infrequent enough, then the LEAF could still work for them 90-95% of the time. In the next breath I mentioned the awesome convenience of QC ... which makes the LEAF *ABSOLUTELY* convenient for short or medium length roadtrips (200-250 miles). Which led to the contrast of CA vs. OR/WA ... etc etc ... I think you know where I was taking that discussion next ;)

Most people simply were impressed that I was taking an electric car from Portland, Oregon to Sacramento, California :shock: And that happened before I even got to Portland (like, prior to my departure around here at home and at the train station, and on the train Saturday night/Sunday).
 
FWIW - I stopped by Belmont QC about an hour ago and was amazed to see somebody charging up on the left side. I was hoping I might run into the BC2BC car.

Anyway, Belmont was up as of an hour ago.
 
KeiJidosha said:
Completed toughest part of the trip. Getting to Metrolink on time :)
Hey KeiJidosha,

Got invited to a SF BayLeaf's meet on Saturday morning at 9 am the Santa Clara Valley Water District. Do you know if you'll be there on time and how long will do you plan to charge?

I live not that far from there but I'm not a morning person... :/ Just wanted to know for my planning.
 
peter said:
FWIW - I stopped by Belmont QC about an hour ago and was amazed to see somebody charging up on the left side. I was hoping I might run into the BC2BC car.

Anyway, Belmont was up as of an hour ago.
Good to know. I may stop by on my way to REFUEL on Saturday.
Thanks to all at GSEAA meeting today. Headwinds made recomendation to charge at Vacaville a wise investment. Arrived in the city with 8% SOC.
 
Bump: I finished my trip report, see above at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9170&start=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
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