What did you pay per watt DC for solar?

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shrink said:
I did a Sunpower Solar lease last year, but I don't think they offer the terms any more.

I prepaid a 20-year lease on a 6.9kWh system for $7,186. In year 7, there is a buy out option of $926 (not long before I'll probably need a new inverter) for a total of $8,112.

So, $8112 / 6900 W = $1.17/Watt.

They needed programs like this to keep making solar more accessible. However, when I tried to get an additional 2.8 kWh system installed a couple of months later, my installer here in AZ said the program was no longer being offered. The IRS wasn't happy with the leasing company taking a 30% tax credit based on a full price system that was actually selling for about 80% less.


Wow. That's a ridiculous price! Wish I could have gotten that.

Craig
 
shrink said:
I did a Sunpower Solar lease last year, but I don't think they offer the terms any more.

I prepaid a 20-year lease on a 6.9kWh system for $7,186. In year 7, there is a buy out option of $926 (not long before I'll probably need a new inverter) for a total of $8,112.

So, $8112 / 6900 W = $1.17/Watt.

How it so cheap? What's the rest of the equation/how are they not losing money?
 
QueenBee said:
shrink said:
I did a Sunpower Solar lease last year, but I don't think they offer the terms any more.

I prepaid a 20-year lease on a 6.9kWh system for $7,186. In year 7, there is a buy out option of $926 (not long before I'll probably need a new inverter) for a total of $8,112.

So, $8112 / 6900 W = $1.17/Watt.

How it so cheap? What's the rest of the equation/how are they not losing money?

Those were the numbers. Straight up. It was a Sunpower lease from last year. Program is no longer offered.
 
shrink said:
QueenBee said:
shrink said:
I did a Sunpower Solar lease last year, but I don't think they offer the terms any more.

I prepaid a 20-year lease on a 6.9kWh system for $7,186. In year 7, there is a buy out option of $926 (not long before I'll probably need a new inverter) for a total of $8,112.

So, $8112 / 6900 W = $1.17/Watt.

How it so cheap? What's the rest of the equation/how are they not losing money?

Those were the numbers. Straight up. It was a Sunpower lease from last year. Program is no longer offered.

But what's the rest of the equation? There is no way they could sell the system for that kind of price and make money. Must be some kind of trickery or they were losing tons of money. Probably got more federal rebate money than if they had just sold the system to you by inflating the price?
 
QueenBee said:
[But what's the rest of the equation? There is no way could sell the system for that kind of price and make money. Must be some kind of trickery or they were losing tons of money money. Probably got more federal rebate money than if they had just sold the system to you by inflating the price?

I would guess they were inflating the price to take advantage of the 30% Federal Rebate and utility company rebate.

What should a 6.9kW system cost? 40K?

30% of the that from the Feds is $12,000.
Utility company rebate probably equaled $10,000.
The $7100 from me (+ $926 buyout) = $8112

Hmm...that's only about $30K.

I'm not sure, but I imagine they were playing the numbers game based on those rebates. Perhaps inflating the system cost to get more Federal money? The utility company rebate in this area (Phoenix, AZ) is based on system-size, so they can't do much inflating there.
 
QueenBee said:
shrink said:
I did a Sunpower Solar lease last year, but I don't think they offer the terms any more.

I prepaid a 20-year lease on a 6.9kWh system for $7,186. In year 7, there is a buy out option of $926 (not long before I'll probably need a new inverter) for a total of $8,112.

So, $8112 / 6900 W = $1.17/Watt.

How it so cheap? What's the rest of the equation/how are they not losing money?

The way they do it is simple. I have the same deal with Sunpower and I looked into our price, since it does seem ridiculously cheap.

The reason year 7 is magical is because that's the year the depreciation can no longer be written off of their lease. They are leasing solar panels like other companies lease things like copiers, and are therefore entitled to write off the depreciation: something a typical homeowner could not do. If I don't buy back in year 7, then the buyout price gets higher and higher, as they need top recoup the cost they will inevitably outlay for new inverters before the 20 year lease runs out. We plan to buy it out, just because we will probably not live here in ten years and it's harder to sell a house with leased panels. At least that's what a couple of agents have told me.

I wasn't aware that Sunpower was no longer offering this deal. I know that demand has been ridiculous this year in Arizona and that APS is paying very little right now because their fund has been nearly tapped out.
 
jspearman said:
QueenBee said:
shrink said:
I did a Sunpower Solar lease last year, but I don't think they offer the terms any more.

I prepaid a 20-year lease on a 6.9kWh system for $7,186. In year 7, there is a buy out option of $926 (not long before I'll probably need a new inverter) for a total of $8,112.

So, $8112 / 6900 W = $1.17/Watt.

How it so cheap? What's the rest of the equation/how are they not losing money?

The way they do it is simple. I have the same deal with Sunpower and I looked into our price, since it does seem ridiculously cheap.

The reason year 7 is magical is because that's the year the depreciation can no longer be written off of their lease. They are leasing solar panels like other companies lease things like copiers, and are therefore entitled to write off the depreciation: something a typical homeowner could not do. If I don't buy back in year 7, then the buyout price gets higher and higher, as they need top recoup the cost they will inevitably outlay for new inverters before the 20 year lease runs out. We plan to buy it out, just because we will probably not live here in ten years and it's harder to sell a house with leased panels. At least that's what a couple of agents have told me.

I wasn't aware that Sunpower was no longer offering this deal. I know that demand has been ridiculous this year in Arizona and that APS is paying very little right now because their fund has been nearly tapped out.

But being able to depreciate something doesn't make money come out of thin air. Normal business expenses can be deducted in the year the the money is spent but things that have multi-year life spans have to be deducted (depreciated) over their lifespan. The only way I see this game working is if they are "paying" way more than they should be which lets them get way more local/federal money.
 
QueenBee said:
But being able to depreciate something doesn't make money come out of thin air. Normal business expenses can be deducted in the year the the money is spent but things that have multi-year life spans have to be deducted (depreciated) over their lifespan. The only way I see this game working is if they are "paying" way more than they should be which lets them get way more local/federal money.

Well, whatever they were doing, it stopped. When I tried to add on a 2+ kWh system a couple of months later, my installer told me the program was no longer offered.

It's too bad. It was really a great way to make solar more accessible. I heard 5kWh systems were only requiring about $4-$5000 on a fully pre-paid 20-year lease.
 
shrink said:
It's too bad. It was really a great way to make solar more accessible. I heard 5kWh systems were only requiring about $4-$5000 on a fully pre-paid 20-year lease.

At today's good prices that's a $20k system and back then it was even more. Who owns the power that it generates? Do you have to pay them for the power it is generating for 20 years? That's the only way I can think that this makes sense without them defrauding the government, which as you point out does make solar more accessible.
 
QueenBee said:
At today's good prices that's a $20k system and back then it was even more. Who owns the power that it generates? Do you have to pay them for the power it is generating for 20 years? That's the only way I can think that this makes sense without them defrauding the government, which as you point out does make solar more accessible.

It's on a net-metering (I think that's the correct term) program with the utility company. Basically, the lessee/homeowner uses whatever is generated first and the excess goes back to the utility company. You accumulate the excess until the end of the fiscal year, at which point the utility company cuts the lessee, not Sunpower, a check for that electricity. However, I think it's only at the wholesale rate of electricity, which is quite low.

I think you can do a plan in which you get paid out at each month for any excess generated, but I did not go that route. I need the on-peak excess during the Winter and Spring for the high A/C usage during hot Phoenix summer.

The lease and buyout fee is the only money paid to Sunpower out of the lessee's pocket.
 
My out of pocket costs were $11,192 for my 5.74kw system which puts me at $1.95 per watt. It would have been cheaper if I put it on my roof but I did not want to cut all my trees down. The system covers all my home power requirements and 20,000+ miles per year in the Leaf.

28 205w Panels = $4329 with free shipping
28 190 inverters = $3847 purchased on ebay
Balance of items were purchased on ebay, craigs list, and Home Depot

$11,192 to self install
$3,730 deduction of my federal taxes
$3,730 grant from state of Illinois
Savings of $1,200 per year in electricity costs
Savings of $800 per year in natural gas costs
Estimated income of about $2,000 every year from power company to purchase my SREC’s
$20,000+ increase in home value

Payback = Day I flipped the switch

No brainer even without the incentives.
 
QueenBee said:
But being able to depreciate something doesn't make money come out of thin air. Normal business expenses can be deducted in the year the the money is spent but things that have multi-year life spans have to be deducted (depreciated) over their lifespan. The only way I see this game working is if they are "paying" way more than they should be which lets them get way more local/federal money.


That is not entirely true, certain real property as described in code section 179 of the tax code allows depreciation of the full value the year the property is put into service. However there is a limit, $500,000, per year. Leased solar panels happen to be one such property. Read about it here.


Hedge
 
Hedge74 said:
That is not entirely true, certain real property as described in code section 179 of the tax code allows depreciation of the full value the year the property is put into service. However there is a limit, $500,000, per year. Leased solar panels happen to be one such property. Read about it here.


Hedge

But being able to depreciate the full value the year the property when it is put into service ultimately doesn't save them money on their taxes per say. It just means they have less profit now vs having less profit over the life of the asset. Tax accountants obviously like that as their goal is to pay as little taxes now since then you can use the money for other things now and you never know what the tax rates/rules will do in the future.
 
QueenBee said:
But being able to depreciate the full value the year the property when it is put into service ultimately doesn't save them money on their taxes per say. It just means they have less profit now vs having less profit over the life of the asset. Tax accountants obviously like that as their goal is to pay as little taxes now since then you can use the money for other things now and you never know what the tax rates/rules will do in the future.

Maybe this had something to do with those low leases that are no longer offered:

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/20120817arizona-solar-power-clients-lurch.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
shrink said:
QueenBee said:
But being able to depreciate the full value the year the property when it is put into service ultimately doesn't save them money on their taxes per say. It just means they have less profit now vs having less profit over the life of the asset. Tax accountants obviously like that as their goal is to pay as little taxes now since then you can use the money for other things now and you never know what the tax rates/rules will do in the future.

Maybe this had something to do with those low leases that are no longer offered:

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/20120817arizona-solar-power-clients-lurch.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"On May 8, administrators requested more information about the system and asked for a cost breakdown. Treasury officials indicated the system appeared to come in above market cost.

Flinn said in an e-mail that the company had never before been questioned about costs. Federal guidelines allow $7 per kilowatt on systems of the project size. She said Perfect Power's price was $6.96 per kilowatt."

So I wonder what their actual cost on this example system was. Say it was a 3,800 watt system and they claim the retail price is $26,448 so they want a $7934 government check. Then the customer pays $4,500 so they've received $3.27 a watt. Then with some more incentives from AZ/utilities there is enough money to make a profit. Maybe the customer has to pay more monthly as well?
 
Hello Guys,
I have my solar pv system done by LA Solar Group. And I did pay $3.95 per watt. I have installed 6.7kW system in Chatsworth.
I will recommend they 100%!!!
 
After 30% rebate (2010) its was $1.95. Including all permits and hardware.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/4D3y8464" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Two years ago, did 28 x 235W at about $6/Watt DC before incentives, about $4/W after federal & CA incentives.
This year, added 12 x 240W at about $3/Watt DC before incentives, $2/W after federal & CA incentives.
 
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