Herm
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:43 am

Caracalover wrote: You never dip below 7 bars and you have a concern over total range?
I have 18,000 miles and no discernable issues yet.
He meant temperature bars and fast recharging in the summer.. How do you know you dont have issues with the battery yet?.. you might be one GID from losing the 12th capacity bar.

Volusiano
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:18 am

Caracalover wrote:
Volusiano wrote:I'm guessing that because Shrink decided to dump his purchased Leaf but still went for a new leased Leaf, it's apparent that the first bar capacity loss is not crucial for him, because he must already have assumed that by next summer, his leased Leaf will have lost its first capacity bar just like his first one.

I'm guessing that it's more of a vote of confidence, saying that while I like your car, Nissan, I don't trust you as a car company anymore. So I'm still doing what's best for me (making good use of your product and technology), but now I have a way out and will dump your car and your company without any slightest hesitation at the end of my lease if I don't see improvement/resolution to the situation.

I think it's this new distrust that's going to be most damaging to Nissan if they don't figure out a way to repair it soon.
Did you get a Leaf last year?
Of course. I'm #5 on the owners' list on this forum who reported their first capacity bar loss.

jspearman
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:20 am

Caracalover wrote: You never dip below 7 bars and you have a concern over total range? Is this a fix that you require, or something you are rightfully concerned about, but has no real impact on your life (IE: value of use to you) at this time?
I find this entire post to be terribly patronizing. Of course I'm rightfully concerned, and even if it doesn't have immediate impact on my life, it leaves a very heavy question mark hanging over our car like the sword of Damocles.

I bought a car with expectations created by Nissan, both explicit and implied, and the car is not performing as it was described. If they knew it was a problem and covered it up to get the car to market, then we have a serious problem on our hands for which I would definitely sue, but that's being overly presumptuous on my part for the time being. If they were simply ignorant of the effects of extreme ambient temps--which seems highly doubtful, but possible--then they need to get in front of this issue and take care of those affected.
Caracalover wrote:Nissan is figuring out what works and how to improve the product, and some of us are going to be impacted by what they don't know yet. Should they fix what really isn't broken, at least for you and the way you utilize the vehicle?
The issue has absolutely nothing to do with me and the way I drive or charge, and again, I find this unacceptably patronizing on your part. Those of us who have lost bars only have this in common: heat, and lots of it.
Caracalover wrote:I have 18,000 miles and no discernable issues yet.
I strongly believe your car will continue to perform this way. I looked at the weather for Altadena and noticed it will not break 90 for the next ten days, with lows in the lower 60's. You have the perfect climate for a Leaf and I have 100% confidence that your car will be beyond 80% capacity at 5 years, and maybe even 10, even if you drive your car to the desert once a week.
Caracalover wrote:Should they opt to start changing out batteries and calling this an issue, it could erode confidence in a product that is really outstanding in so many ways. If it actually impacts your life, I can see the reasoning, but if it is not an issue?
The Leaf is definitely outstanding, and my wife would be sad to see it go, as would I. But none of us should have to settle with a product that doesn't honestly work the way the manufacturer said it would, especially a product that costs over $30K. I wouldn't settle for a computer that didn't work the way Apple said it would, or even a meal that was mediocre after being promised something spectacular, so why should I settle for a car that does 20%,30%,50% less than promised? That doesn't make any sense to me as a consumer.

If Nissan won't make it right, or if they have covered up this problem, then they deserve bad publicity, lost confidence, lost sales, and the loss of my business. Again, I hope they make it right.

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OrientExpress
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:24 am

9.
Last edited by OrientExpress on Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:41 am

jspearman wrote:
Caracalover wrote: You never dip below 7 bars and you have a concern over total range? Is this a fix that you require, or something you are rightfully concerned about, but has no real impact on your life (IE: value of use to you) at this time?
I find this entire post to be terribly patronizing...

i find your post to have a lack of understanding in the basics of online chat (not all of us take the time to write long drawn out explanations)

taking comments in context (we all know what the basic issues are and your repeating them is nice but EXTREMELY unnecessary. we are here for a very small subset of reasons.

1) info on how best to learn and love our Leaf
2) playing our part to manage the initial beginnings of the EV revolution (part 2)

now, i have the same concerns you do. i live in a temperate climate. my minimally safe driving needs are 50 miles a day, i have 18,000 miles, charged to 280 GID 4 days ago and YES, i still have the same concerns

i do not want Nissan to fail, i want the Leaf to be looked at as THE watershed event of this time. so they must do right by me and everyone else. now that is a tall order, but that is what i expect.

i do not expect them to be first out, first down. (betamax) they still dominate a niche that no one has come close to. (Focus electric maybe? but not looking like it. hard to dominate with a rollout of 4,000 units a year)

they have implemented significant improvements in each MY. which means it was a rush to market? sure a bit. i am ok with it. i have thought long (ok it wasnt very long) and hard (definitely very hard!!) and have come to the same conclusion EVERY time.

the 2011 Leaf may not have been completely ready but it more than exceeds my expectations. i also believe Nissan will stand behind their product but are simply unable to do so effectively right now as it requires access to resources they do not have but will have in 6 months.

ask far as the question you take offense to, i asked the EXACT same question and everyone took it ok. can your issue wait 6 months? now, there is no guarantee Nissan will do anything in 6 months but then again, i cant see them just letting it go either
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
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QueenBee
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:44 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote: they have implemented significant improvements in each MY. which means it was a rush to market? sure a bit. i am ok with it. i have thought long (ok it wasnt very long) and hard (definitely very hard!!) and have come to the same conclusion EVERY time.

the 2011 Leaf may not have been completely ready but it more than exceeds my expectations. i also believe Nissan will stand behind their product but are simply unable to do so effectively right now as it requires access to resources they do not have but will have in 6 months.
I completely disagree that the LEAF was rushed to market and that each model has had significant improvements. AFAIC each model year has has had features added that have come with additional cost (We'll see if 2013 new features are offset by reduced cost of manufacturing in the US). If you were to make a list of all the differences between 2011 and 2012 AFAIK the only things you are going to come up with are new features. I would expect 2013 to have some improvements given that it'll have been 2 full years of production but so far I think all we've heard about are just new features.

If you think back to issues we've seen AFAIK none of the issues experienced in the 2011 model year were fixed in 2012 and unless Nissan has some surprises for us I'm not expecting 2013 to fix any issues in 2011/2012, although it would be very good timing for something to resolve the issues we are talking about.

Anyway, if you want to say that the LEAF was rushed to market because of the initial ontime delivery issues, initial AC issue, initial GOM update issue, the charger line noise issue, the lack of dinging when you open the door, the Carwings software update, whatever other minor software updates, whatever initial build quality issues there might have been, and whatever minor things people have had fixed under warranty than I think you are being way too critical and ignoring that they the LEAF is the result of decades of work.

This issue is the first time I've thought it sucks to be an early adopter but that's primarily just because we are having to be patient for Nissan to actually properly respond and address it.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:17 am

QueenBee wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote: they have implemented significant improvements in each MY. which means it was a rush to market? sure a bit. i am ok with it. i have thought long (ok it wasnt very long) and hard (definitely very hard!!) and have come to the same conclusion EVERY time.

the 2011 Leaf may not have been completely ready but it more than exceeds my expectations. i also believe Nissan will stand behind their product but are simply unable to do so effectively right now as it requires access to resources they do not have but will have in 6 months.
I completely disagree that the LEAF was rushed to market and that each model has had significant improvements.
ok. seems it was pretty well documented that in a movie i saw somewhere that the Leaf was rushed to market.
AFAIC each model year has has had features added that have come with additional cost(We'll see if 2013 new features are offset by reduced cost of manufacturing in the US).
not sure if i would attribute the price hike to the features added in 2012 simply because if the case, we saw about a 500% markup. i think we need to revisit the relationship between the Yen and the dollar for a clearer reason
Anyway, if you want to say that the LEAF was rushed to market because of the initial ontime delivery issues, initial AC issue, initial GOM update issue, the charger line noise issue, the lack of dinging when you open the door, the Carwings software update, whatever other minor software updates, whatever initial build quality issues there might have been, and whatever minor things people have had fixed under warranty than I think you are being way too critical and ignoring that they the LEAF is the result of decades of work.
actually not referring to any of those issues. SW issues always pop up after release simply because the testing procedure is limited in scope due to cost and time restraints. having issues pop up in the wild is normal, expected and planned for.

things like heated seats and steering wheel to increase passenger comfort and reduce the hit on CC on the range of the Leaf is not a result of "decades of research". it was a value judgment made using parameters we will probably never know. whether it was a logistical issue based on the initial release areas or more likely a calculated compromise based on what they knew would be a limited production run. Sure CA, TN and AZ probably could do without it, but there are several people in WA who traded in their 2011 for a 2012 for that specific reason alone.

another thing to look at is car manufacturers in general. most react on a much more elongated time line. we are talking 3-5 years in some cases. i was also part of the Prius revolution and Toyota was not known for its quick response either...in fact, they much slower than Nissan.

now is that a result of their not making glaring misjudgments like Nissan may have done? partly true no doubt, but i dont think Nissan was so blind to customer desires and why heated seats were not an option in 2011?? all goes back to that "rush to market" thing
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
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QueenBee
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:57 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
QueenBee wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote: they have implemented significant improvements in each MY. which means it was a rush to market? sure a bit. i am ok with it. i have thought long (ok it wasnt very long) and hard (definitely very hard!!) and have come to the same conclusion EVERY time.

the 2011 Leaf may not have been completely ready but it more than exceeds my expectations. i also believe Nissan will stand behind their product but are simply unable to do so effectively right now as it requires access to resources they do not have but will have in 6 months.
I completely disagree that the LEAF was rushed to market and that each model has had significant improvements.
ok. seems it was pretty well documented that in a movie i saw somewhere that the Leaf was rushed to market.
AFAIC each model year has has had features added that have come with additional cost(We'll see if 2013 new features are offset by reduced cost of manufacturing in the US).
not sure if i would attribute the price hike to the features added in 2012 simply because if the case, we saw about a 500% markup. i think we need to revisit the relationship between the Yen and the dollar for a clearer reason

things like heated seats and steering wheel to increase passenger comfort and reduce the hit on CC on the range of the Leaf is not a result of "decades of research". it was a value judgment made using parameters we will probably never know. whether it was a logistical issue based on the initial release areas or more likely a calculated compromise based on what they knew would be a limited production run. Sure CA, TN and AZ probably could do without it, but there are several people in WA who traded in their 2011 for a 2012 for that specific reason alone.
Heh, so you are saying because heated seats and steering wheel were not an option until say 2/3rd of the way through the first model year it was rushed to market? I sure as hell would have rather gotten 9 months out of my LEAF than waited for them to add something that silly.

The way I figure it they added $1,630 for what used to be optional equipment and then raised the price another $1,900 so unless you you think they threw in the QC and the cold weather package for free I'd say it increased the price.

Caracalover
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:05 pm

Herm wrote:
Caracalover wrote: You never dip below 7 bars and you have a concern over total range?
I have 18,000 miles and no discernable issues yet.
He meant temperature bars and fast recharging in the summer.. How do you know you dont have issues with the battery yet?.. you might be one GID from losing the 12th capacity bar.
Thanks for clearing that up - I thought he meant charge bars and so one might understand my patronizing tone a bit easier. I don't spend a lot of time here - (As many of you seem to do - Kudos to you all for that.) so my post was not as well researched as it could have been. My bad.

I imagine that kind of heat also wears out an ICE faster, so moving might be an idea if this is something that truly bothered me. I know that is going to sound really patronizing, but it has some truth to it, and I can't think of a better way to phrase it.

As for my battery and a loss of capacity, I understood that when I bought the car, and simply hope that a way to revitalize it will materialize when enough of these fantastic cars are on the road. If I spent my money on an ideal that wasn't realized, it will not have been the first time, or the last. It has already been a worthwile experience, and for that I am thankful Nissan stepped up when so many others are stepping away, or only going half way. Boycott the companies that are only making compliance vehicles. That makes it Nissan or Tesla at this point, although Toyota may soon be a real option and due to the Prius I might give them a pass. While I like th Volt, without an all electric option it just doesn't go far enough for me.
26,000 miles on Silver Leaf
wildcatzoo.org drive there on Sunday across a big mountain, sorry no public charging at this time.
Looking for grants to put in solar port so perhaps in the future...

Caracalover
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:40 pm

[quote="jspearman]
I find this entire post to be terribly patronizing. Of course I'm rightfully concerned, and even if it doesn't have immediate impact on my life, it leaves a very heavy question mark hanging over our car like the sword of Damocles.
A tad dramatic for a question mark, don't you think?
I bought a car with expectations created by Nissan, both explicit and implied, and the car is not performing as it was described. If they knew it was a problem and covered it up to get the car to market, then we have a serious problem on our hands for which I would definitely sue, but that's being overly presumptuous on my part for the time being. If they were simply ignorant of the effects of extreme ambient temps--which seems highly doubtful, but possible--then they need to get in front of this issue and take care of those affected.
They did know that high heat could be detrimental to the vehicle, as it is for all vehicles. Would you have preferred they not offer it in that market until 2017?
The issue has absolutely nothing to do with me and the way I drive or charge, and again, I find this unacceptably patronizing on your part. Those of us who have lost bars only have this in common: heat, and lots of it.

Understood, thanks for letting us all know of this issue, first adopters are always going to be impacted by something, and many companies will settle issues like this given time. Screaming and sueing about these issues often leads to a dumbing down of what becomes available, so either accept, decline, or wait and see what will transpire. I am glad to see you found a solution that works for you (Leasing a new one and selling the old one). I do doubt that Nissan knew this was an issue, although they hint that it could be an issue in the information I read before I bought - namely that 140 degree temps for several days could have a bad effect on the battery. I did read that one owner in that area sought to recover 3 miles of charge on a full battery - not a good idea unless you had four flat tires and went up a mountain - not an informed owner and protecting everyone else from those that don't get educated will have us using the same amount of battery as a Volt. Nissan chose to allow us to use a large amount of the battery, and I value that. A fix for this "issue" would be to give all of us 10 bars on the gauge instead of 12 (18KWH usable or less), so the degradation would not show up for an even longer time. I prefer the way Nissan believed it should work, although your experience shows that belief may be suspect. If they waited for all the kinks to be worked out we would never see any car delivered.


The Leaf is definitely outstanding, and my wife would be sad to see it go, as would I. But none of us should have to settle with a product that doesn't honestly work the way the manufacturer said it would, especially a product that costs over $30K. I wouldn't settle for a computer that didn't work the way Apple said it would, or even a meal that was mediocre after being promised something spectacular, so why should I settle for a car that does 20%,30%,50% less than promised? That doesn't make any sense to me as a consumer.

20, 30, or 50%? Even two bars down would give you far more utility than that - if I am overly patronizing, it is likely due to you over dramatizing.

If Nissan won't make it right, or if they have covered up this problem, then they deserve bad publicity, lost confidence, lost sales, and the loss of my business. Again, I hope they make it right.[/quote]
Strongly disagree - what they do deserve is a pat on the back for taking up the need for cleaner ways to transport the world, a bit of good publicity - like what your story could provide (You did choose to buy it once and lease it once, pretty good story if phrased in a positive light) - and I hope strong sales will result from our continued love for the vehicle they have already given us, or you twice.
26,000 miles on Silver Leaf
wildcatzoo.org drive there on Sunday across a big mountain, sorry no public charging at this time.
Looking for grants to put in solar port so perhaps in the future...

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