Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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TomT said:
It's significantly different for two reasons:

1) Your ICE gas tank does not have a limited 73 mile (EPA) gas tank capacity so a small decrease in range is not noticeable or problematic like it is on the Leaf...
2) When you return from the harsh environment in your ICE, the range will return to normal. It won't in your Leaf...

OrientExpress said:
If you operated an ICE car in a harsh environment like the Arizona desert, and complained that the MPGs it got was less than cars operated in less harsh environments, what do you think the response from the manufacturer would be? Especially if they told you up front that its MPG would be less.

And a better analogy is that you buy an ICE car that is expected to last 15 years but instead you have to replace the engine after 7.5 years because you live in a hot area because the manufacturer didn't include a big enough radiator to handle the climate in your state.
 
OrientExpress said:
It appears that 99+% of LEAF early adopting enthusiasts are having an excellent experience with their cars, and that says that the future for Nissan and other EVs manufacturers is bright. Nissan has done a great job in bolstering the faith of the vast majority of early adopters, But with that said, of the other .0001% of owners that feel that they are not having a good experience, even they feel that overall the car is a very good one.

Tell that to the guy in the news story who lost 3 capacity bars.

OrientExpress said:
If you operated an ICE car in a harsh environment like the Arizona desert, and complained that the MPGs it got was less than cars operated in less harsh environments, what do you think the response from the manufacturer would be? Especially if they told you up front that its MPG would be less.

My ICE cars did just fine in the "harsh environment like the Arizona desert." Believe it or not, the winters are mild and we have highs in the 80's in March. Any hit to MPG comes back in the non-summer months. I don't think a heat-degraded battery will have as good as a recovery. The only issue was - surprise - changing the accessory battery more often than when I lived back East. And last week my Volt got 54 electric miles in Arizona on a single charge, followed by 41 mpg on the gas range extender.

Your denial is disturbing and bordering on delusional. I'm sure all the other affected AZ owners, especially the owner in the video who can barely make his daily commute, appreciate your support.
 
shrink said:
And last week my Volt got 54 electric miles in Arizona on a single charge, followed by 41 mpg on the gas range extender.

I was actually thinking about the Volts earlier today...has anyone experienced or heard of anyone who has that their Volt for 1+ years in Phoenix that their electric range has gone down at all?
 
HXGuy said:
I was actually thinking about the Volts earlier today...has anyone experienced or heard of anyone who has that their Volt for 1+ years in Phoenix that their electric range has gone down at all?

No

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/gm-tweaks-2013-volt-increased-range-and-more-46843.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While GM has milked an incremental gain in energy density, it also reports “tests have revealed less battery degradation,” not that there were known problems before.
 
Last night 7-17-2012 in Phoenix TV5 was alerted and did a report on the LEAF's that have lost capacity. IT'S EVERY LEAF in the area not just a few. If we all keep reporting it maybe we will get some action. All Nissan needs to do is add a fan. Right now it's all passive with no air flow when parked in a hot parking lot or garage.

All other EVs have at least fan cooling and some have liquid cooling like the TESLA and FORD Focus. Even the CODA has active cooling. Nissan has to work on this problem. A new pack would just go bad again. Other EVs also use a lithium chemistry that is much more tolerant of heat. Nissan has both a low heat battery and NO ACTIVE cooling. Double Trouble.

A prototype SCAN GAUGE I have shows I've lost 17% already in only 13,400 miles and 1 1/2 year. By the end of 5 years I'll be lucky to have 50% and we park in the shade and only charge to 80%. Many have lostr 1 to 2 bars, a few have already lost 3. It's not a linear loss so the first bar is big at about 18% then each one is less but it doesn't help range.

:cry:
 
opossum said:
CHANNEL 5 will be at our happy hour tonight to work on the follow-up story! Please attend if you can!
... our HAPPY hour ???!!!? Boy, you AZies have a strange sense of humor !



( Sorry could not resist :lol: )
 
vrwl said:
Give them the URL for the Wiki so they can see HOW MANY people are REALLY affected! (not just 5)
Fear not, my friend! Heather Moore has compiled quite a bit of information for the follow up story. I have also sent her a number of things, including the current list of reported capacity bar losers. She is compiling quite a bit of information that will contradict Mark Perry's statements.
 
Added a few by their request. I'll get more details from them later and repost.


1. Azdre -
4/26/12, 16,624 miles, 14 months lost 1st Bar.
6/7/2012, Range Test, 5mi/kWh, 100% to LBW: 58.6 miles (NTB: 75-85 miles expected)
6/9/12, 18,822 miles, 76.1% ScanGauge w/ 100% charge.
6/14/12, ~19,000 miles, lost 2nd Bar.
6/30/12, ~19,850 miles, 71.8% ScanGauge w/ 100% charge. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/7/2012)
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012)
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/10/1012)
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012)
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix (sold that Leaf, replaced w/leased '12 Leaf)
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas (no longer has Leaf)
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix
20. Leafwing - July 05, 2012, 13.5K/15 months, Plano, TX.
21. GerryAZ - July 05, 2012, ?/?, Phoenix
22. ecoobsessive - July 6, 2012, 13K/13 months, San Antonio, TX
23. jhm614 - May 15, 2012, 25K/14.5 months, Arlington, TX (2nd bar loss reported on 7/7/2012)
24. DarkDave - June 15, 2012, ~8.5K/14.5 months, Phoenix, AZ
25. JasonT - July 14, 2012 ~25.2K/15 months, Tucson, AZ
26. Kolmstead - July 16,2012, 14.3K/19 months, Ridgecrest, CA
27. rjzastaury - June ? 2012, ?/12 months, Tuscon, AZ
28. LeafLady - July 18, 2012, 12.7K/11 months, Location unknown
29. Scott Yarosh - April ? 2012, 21.5K/10 months, Phoenix, AZ, lost 2nd bar 6/30/[email protected]/12 mos, lost 3rd bar 7/12/[email protected]/13 months(from
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=990#p210171and viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=1210#p212356and viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=1230#p212377
30. NOC8H18 - July, 2012 - 3rd capacity bar lost. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9327&start=50#p213437" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
31. TC Phoenix, AZ- 1 bar loss
32. DH Phoenix, AZ- 2 bar loss
33. RobR Phoenix, AZ - 2 bar loss
34. GF Phoenix, AZ- 1 bar loss


Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
2. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix (supposedly no longer has Leaf)
3. TomT's friend Tim (not on the forum), in Phoenix, lost 1st bar on 7/15/2012/13K miles, had car since August 2011.
 
azdre said:
...
30. NOC8H18 - July, 2012 - 3rd capacity bar lost. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9327&start=50#p213437" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
31. TC Phoenix, AZ- 1 bar loss
32. DH Phoenix, AZ- 2 bar loss
33. RobR Phoenix, AZ - 2 bar loss
34. GF Phoenix, AZ- 1 bar loss

...
I thought Nissan said there were only 5 cases. ;) Perhaps they meant 35? :roll:
 
OrientExpress said:
Of the fewer than 10 posters that make up the the vast majority of the posts in the 148+ pages of this thread, I'm probably the most rationale one of the bunch. Edge case phenomena is going to happen in every situation, and this situation is one of those. It will be corrected, but as in every edge case that is more than 1 std. dev from the mean, it will take a lot of effort and time to make the incremental improvement that will solve this situation.
You're sort of ignoring the **** storm of bad press this is going to bring to Nissan, the LEAF, and EV's in general. The FUD police are going to run wild with this.
 
Stoaty said:
azdre said:
...
30. NOC8H18 - July, 2012 - 3rd capacity bar lost. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9327&start=50#p213437" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
31. TC Phoenix, AZ- 1 bar loss
32. DH Phoenix, AZ- 2 bar loss
33. RobR Phoenix, AZ - 2 bar loss
34. GF Phoenix, AZ- 1 bar loss

...
I thought Nissan said there were only 5 cases. ;) Perhaps they meant 35? :roll:

A bit of perspective, of the 32,000 LEAFs sold world-wide to date, there are now 0.0010625% in this list.
 
OrientExpress said:
Stuff happens, and edge case things happen in extreme environments. Your 3 bar guy can still drive his car just fine, everything works just fine, he just has to "fill-up" more often.

And with most edge cases, an inordinate amount of effort will be expended to compensate for that less that 1% situation.
Yeah, 34 cases of early capacity loss, most in Arizona... and these are just the ones we know about. These are definitely "edge cases": some are on the edge of losing significant utility of their car very early in the claimed battery life from Nissan. The problem as I see it is that Nissan isn't expending any effort to compensate for this situation--except, of course, to deny that there is a problem (or when pushed, to call it "normal").
 
OrientExpress said:
A bit of perspective, of the 32,000 LEAFs sold world-wide to date, there are now 0.0010625% in this list.
Yes, and that is 5 times as many as there were a few weeks ago. (Edit: to be strictly accurate, the list has started at 1 and increased to 34 reported cases over about 10 weeks; more cases are coming out of the woodwork as the word spreads). The situation in the hot climates is still developing, and apparently at a pretty rapid rate.
 
I would say it's probably safe to assume that if there are 400 LEAFs between Phoenix/Tucson, that either all of them already have or will have the same capacity loss as the 34 people on here are seeing. It just happens that those 34 people are here on this forum, and that's actually pretty high, almost 10% of LEAF owners but I'm sure the majority of LEAF owners do not visit forums and are not nearly as informed as people on here. They probably have no noticed the lost bar(s) and have no noticed a loss of range yet, but that does not mean they won't in time.
 
Stoaty said:
Yes, and that is 5 times as many as there were a few weeks ago. The situation in the hot climates is still developing, and apparently at a pretty rapid rate.

On a post in this thread on June 28th there were 19 cars on the list, now there are 34. If there were 5 times as many today, that would be 95, would it not?
 
OrientExpress said:
Essentially the story here is :
Some people who live in the desert are quoted as saying that they love their electric cars, but wish it wasn't so darn hot so that their batteries would hold a charge, better (that's news?). Manufacturer says they will see what they can do to fix it.
Corrrection to the story: Many people who live in the desert are losing capacity much faster than Nissan claimed, even though Nissan bragged about testing in Arizona and made it one of the initial rollout states and said the battery pack would be OK there. They got upset when someone from another EV manufacturer (Tesla) said that going without a TMS was going to lead to trouble in places like Phoenix. Now manufacturer says it isn't really happening, but if it is, it is "normal".

Edit: added to ignore list to save wasted typing.
 
OrientExpress said:
Essentially the story here is :
Some people who live in the desert are quoted as saying that they love their electric cars, but wish it wasn't so darn hot so that their batteries would hold a charge, better (that's news?). Manufacturer says they will see what they can do to fix it. Meanwhile the earth keeps getting hotter, and everyone who lives in the desert continue to have issues with their batteries in their cars (of all types) as they have since the first car was put into service in the desert.

Side story, all sorts of other mechanical and electrical things also have issues operating in the extreme heat, some grumble, others chalk it up to the fact its so darn hot in the desert. Life goes on.

This story doesn't have anyone getting stranded, killed, burned to death, having their cars not starting, being taken up by aliens, seeing elvis, having their birth certificate vetted by the sheriff, or any other newsworthy attribute that makes a **** storm, so sit back, relax and take deep breaths, tell Nissan you don't like the situation with your car, and give them some time to figure out a solution.
There are powerful forces determined to kill the EV. They have been predicting that EV batteries will die early deaths, that the vehicles will become useless because of loss of range, and that the general public will abandon them as reliable transportation because of that. The recent problems with the LEAF in hot climates gives them "proof" that they can reference to back their claims, and they will.
In the meantime, your car still works just fine, you just have to fill up more often.
Bull, if you can't even get to work on a single charge your car does not work just fine, or if you don't have the ability to charge at work and you can't do the round trip on a single charge, your car does not work just fine. I have to say you're being completely ridiculous.
 
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