Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
RegGuheert said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
i think we all need to "consider" that Nissan has addressed the issue much quicker than we had realized.
By my way of thinking, Nissan has addressed absolutely nothing. They have not even acknowledged that there is any problem with the Nissan LEAFs they sold to customers in Phoenix. They have not retracted or clarified public statements like the one in the manual that their customers can expect to have 80% capacity after five years. And I suspect they are still selling LEAFs in Phoenix to people when they know there is a decent probability that those LEAFs will be beyond the standard definition of battery end-of-life (<70% original capacity) before the length of a normal lease has passed.
+1!
 
RegGuheert said:
By my way of thinking, Nissan has addressed absolutely nothing. They have not even acknowledged that there is any problem with the Nissan LEAFs they sold to customers in Phoenix. They have not retracted or clarified public statements like the one in the manual that their customers can expect to have 80% capacity after five years. And I suspect they are still selling LEAFs in Phoenix to people when they know there is a decent probability that those LEAFs will be beyond the standard definition of battery end-of-life (<70% original capacity) before the length of a normal lease has passed.
They haven't addressed anything yet, but it looks like they are in the process of addressing the problem. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a large company to move any faster than they are moving. We don't really know if this "testing" is because what is happening in Phoenix was really unexpected, or if they are just using it to buy time while they formulate an official response. Either way, it is a positive step because it is a tacit acknowledgment that there is a problem--but one that will need some followup actions to be meaningful.
 
Stoaty said:
Either way, it is a positive step because it is a tacit acknowledgment that there is a problem--but one that will need some followup actions to be meaningful.
Agreed. But continuing to sell LEAFs in Phoenix just as before is a tacit denial that there is a problem.
 
I agree that it's a bit disingenuous to keep selling the Leaf here in Phoenix until they know better what is going on, but I think what Nissan is doing with The cars in Casa Grande is a positive first step and I'm reserving further judgment and action until I hear what they have to say. The act of pulling these cars off the road is an acknowledgment from Nissan that something is amiss, whether they verbally admit it or not. So, I wait.
 
I just received this from Nissan. To view the PDF version, click here


An open letter to Nissan LEAF owners from Carla Bailo, senior vice
president, Research and Development, Nissan Americas:


carla_bailo.jpg

At Nissan, we consider ourselves fortunate to have such passionate
and engaged customers—especially within our LEAF family. Recently,
we learned from the Nissan LEAF community—and specifically from
some Phoenix-area LEAF owners—of a growing concern about battery
capacity loss with their electric vehicles. In fact, the MyNissanLEAF
online owners' forum—a resource that allows owners to share their
experiences and discuss EVs— helped bring the concern to our
attention for which we’re appreciative.

The forum's discussion around battery capacity loss has reached a
point where I feel it important to personally address what is being
debated, to provide Nissan's viewpoint and, most importantly, to
explain the actions we are taking to work with owners.

First, it is important to stress that while battery capacity loss incidents represent only a
handful of cases, we are taking them—as well as the concerns of the larger LEAF family—
very seriously. Battery capacity loss of the levels reported may be considered normal
depending on the method and frequency of charging, the operating environment, the
amount of electricity consumed during daily usage and a vehicle's mileage and age. But the
only way to know for sure is to examine customer vehicles, perform a thorough diagnostic
on the vehicle and battery, and better understand the real-world driving and charging
history of the owners. We are now reaching out to individual owners to start this process to
ensure that we fully understand these events and all potential causes, and pledge to provide
an update as soon as possible.

Battery data collected from Nissan LEAFs to date currently indicates that less than 0.3
percent of Nissan LEAFs in the U.S. (including vehicles in service dating back to December,
2010) have experienced a loss of any battery capacity bars. Overall, this universe of
vehicles represents a very small fraction of the more than 13,000 Nissan LEAFs on U.S.
roads. Also, data received globally from other LEAF vehicles shows that this condition
typically occurs to high-mileage cars or those in unique operating situations.

Second, I want to explain battery capacity, how it is affected by the operating environment
and usage patterns and what is considered normal battery health. All lithium-ion batteries
lose capacity with use and age. This is normal and expected. In general, lithium-ion
batteries exhibit a higher loss of capacity early in life, with the rate of loss decreasing over
time. Nissan has projected that LEAF batteries will generally have 80 percent of their
capacity under normal use after 5 years, and 70 percent after 10 years.

Are there factors that could negatively affect this performance curve? Yes. A customer's
method and frequency of charging, operating environment, the amount of electricity
consumed during daily usage and a vehicle's mileage and age can all affect the rate of
battery capacity loss. Until we know more about each customer's unique situation, it would
be premature to declare what is happening with the Nissan LEAFs in Phoenix, and whether
their performance is within the range of expectations or not. Working closely with our
owners to get to the bottom of these concerns is exactly what we’re committed to do.

Nissan engineers from our Arizona Testing Center and around the world will study each
customer case, work to discover the root cause and will determine next steps to satisfy our
customers. While we do this, we pledge to provide an update to our customers as soon as
possible.

Together, we are confident that by collaborating with our LEAF community—including the
more than 400 owners in Arizona—we will ensure that owners experience many years of
enjoyable driving as EV pioneers.

Thank you for your passion for the Nissan LEAF and the electrical vehicle movement. It is
only through your dedication and willingness to innovate that we are able to bring zeroemission
mobility to the mass market.

Kind regards,
Carla Bailo
Senior Vice President, Research & Development
Nissan Americas
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
personally, i think it was a great plan...timing is just a bit off is all
Personally, I agree that the idea of Nissan having some sort of better battery technology coming in the 2013 LEAFs is the only thing that makes all the pieces fit together logically. It sure would be nice if we had some more direct evidence, though.

BTW, does anyone have an idea when we can expect Nissan to detail the 2013 LEAF offering? Will it be soon, or will it be delayed based on the TN factory start date of December 2012?
 
TonyWilliams said:
Seems like normal corporate speak to head off hysteria (which could cost Nissan sales and money).

I am with Tony, it is a bunch of blah blah blah. Of and if it is only 0.3% of owners, why not make us whole?
 
DesertDenizen said:
I am with Tony, it is a bunch of blah blah blah. Of and if it is only 0.3% of owners, why not make us whole?
I welcome this letter. It's a very positive step in the right direction, at least in my mind. That said, 0.003 x 13,000 = 39, which is nearly exactly the length of the list maintained on the Wiki. That's a rather strange coincidence. Are we sure we tracked down all the owners that lost a bar?
1
 
surfingslovak said:
DesertDenizen said:
I am with Tony, it is a bunch of blah blah blah. Of and if it is only 0.3% of owners, why not make us whole?
I welcome this letter. In my mind, it's a very positive step in the right direction. That said, 0.003 x 13,000 = 39, which is nearly exactly the length of the list maintained on the Wiki. That's a rather strange coincidence. Are we sure we tracked down all the owners that lost a bar?
1

I took it to mean data collected via CarWings. But it's not very specific.
 
If Nissan know so well all the factors affecting battery capacity, why is so hard to get recommendations how to lower capacity loss, they should give us their recommendation long ago. Losing 9% of GIDs within 2 mo driving in OK to me is a big loss. Letter is nice, but I was expecting more detailed info how to take care of the car during normal summer temp. Maybe next letter will answer my questions
 
dandrewk said:
I took it to mean data collected via CarWings. But it's not very specific.
Carla Bailo said:
Battery data collected from Nissan LEAFs to date currently indicates that less than 0.3
percent of Nissan LEAFs in the U.S. (including vehicles in service dating back to December,
2010) have experienced a loss of any battery capacity bars. Overall, this universe of
vehicles represents a very small fraction of the more than 13,000 Nissan LEAFs on U.S.
roads. Also, data received globally from other LEAF vehicles shows that this condition
typically occurs to high-mileage cars or those in unique operating situations.
I think the 0.3% is essentially what's publicly known via this forum and the Wiki, and Nissan is not sharing any additional information beyond that. All they are willing to say is that this condition occurred to high-mileage cars or those in unique operating situations, which was presumably determined via CarWings.
 
surfingslovak said:
dandrewk said:
I took it to mean data collected via CarWings. But it's not very specific.
Carla Bailo said:
Battery data collected from Nissan LEAFs to date currently indicates that less than 0.3
percent of Nissan LEAFs in the U.S. (including vehicles in service dating back to December,
2010) have experienced a loss of any battery capacity bars. Overall, this universe of
vehicles represents a very small fraction of the more than 13,000 Nissan LEAFs on U.S.
roads. Also, data received globally from other LEAF vehicles shows that this condition
typically occurs to high-mileage cars or those in unique operating situations.
I think the 0.3% is essentially what's publicly known via this forum and the Wiki, and Nissan is not sharing any additional information beyond that. All they are willing to say is that this condition occurred to high-mileage cars or those in unique operating situations, which was presumably determined via CarWings.

Does CarWings upload battery capacity levels (bars or gids) as part of normal data collection?
 
dandrewk said:
Does CarWings upload battery capacity levels (bars or gids) as part of normal data collection?
Judging from some of the early information, it's reasonable to assume that CarWings receives battery level in Wh (our Gids) and the charge log. I'm not sure if they transmitted any information pertaining to permanent capacity loss, but based on my reading of the letter and the information contained therein, I'm assuming that this is not the case. However, I could be easily wrong on this. It would be great to know what's being sent, much like what Phil found about the annual battery check.
 
Interesting from the standpoint of Nissan being surprised by all this. I have read lots of lectures here about how Nissan tested batteries in Arizona long before the car was delivered.

I am also a bit uneasy about how the deterioration is supposed to "slow down after the initial loss". It's a great way to put off the owners, telling them "wait another year and see what happens".
 
that's because you are willing to "bundle up" to stay warm. the reference, IMHO, is 100% related to the climate control and has nothing to do with added battery capacity or TMS. don't forget, some people were seeing a loss of 50% range with liberal Climate Control during the winter months. Most folks want to set the climate control on auto, set the temp they like and then not think about it any more, for those folks, the heat pump will be a big range extender. For those of us who are satisfied with prewarming and heated seats and steering wheel, a heat pump will make little difference. lets hope they give us control of the f-ing circulating fan, without having CC on!

God help those who live in a climate that gets extremely hot in the summer and very cold in the winter.

DaveinOlyWA said:
...
not sure a heat pump will give us that much. there is not enough to gain by making the heater work better. fact of the matter; without a thermal controls, the LEAF pack stores at least 2 KW LESS when it is cold.

i ran several tests of this last winter and each showed me to only have 18.5 to 19.2 KW at my disposal and this is on a pack with ZERO degradation, so all the loss was due to a cold pack.

take that equation out and i was really only losing maybe 10-12 miles of range due to running the heater. of course that depended on how fast i was driving, how far i was going and how cold it was.
 
Just read this on Facebook:

Nissan LEAF
There have been growing concerns among the Nissan LEAF community - specifically from several owners in the Phoenix area - about battery capacity loss they're experiencing with their LEAF. To address the reports, Carla Bailo, Senior Vice President of Research and Development for Nissan Americas, has written an open letter to LEAF Owners on MyNissanLEAF.com, the forum whose community helped bring concerns to our attention.

We are committed to working closely with our owners who have reported battery capacity loss to get answers that the LEAF community deserve in a timely and transparent manner. Nissan engineers from our Arizona Testing Center and around the world will study each customer case, work to understanding the root cause and will determine next steps to satisfy our customers.

Thank you to all of our LEAF Owners who have shared their feedback here on the Nissan LEAF Facebook Page, we can't do this without you. - Nissan Social

My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - Early Capacity Losses
http://www.mynissanleaf.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Like · · Share · 1 · 3 minutes ago ·
 
Back
Top