DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14488
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:31 pm

jspearman wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:While everybody is pontificating about temperature adjustments to available capacity, please address why I had 15-18% loss of RANGE / AUTONOMY in 75F temperatures? And a similar numbers of performance reduction from other LEAFs in other "hospitable" climates?

Is the rational that it would just get worse with temperature, and then magically improve as the temperature returns to hospitable? If so, then we can just take one of the many affected Arizona LEAFs, and air condition it overnight, and then wake up early with a full, cooler 100% charge in 75F early morning in Phoenix, and voila, range and capacity bars restored.

Good luck, but we don't have to guess. Another variable that is very easy to test for.
I agree with Tony. I didn't have this kind of range loss in August of last year, when it was equally hot, so why now? Why weren't we seeing these temp adjustments last summer? Something is rotten in the state of Arizona, and it's not just Jan Brewer.
and you verified your battery capacity with what?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
TickTock
Posts: 1701
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 3626
Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:52 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:While everybody is pontificating about temperature adjustments to available capacity, please address why I had 15-18% loss of RANGE / AUTONOMY in 75F temperatures? And a similar numbers of performance reduction from other LEAFs in other "hospitable" climates?

Is the rational that it would just get worse with temperature, and then magically improve as the temperature returns to hospitable? If so, then we can just take one of the many affected Arizona LEAFs, and air condition it overnight, and then wake up early with a full, cooler 100% charge in 75F early morning in Phoenix, and voila, range and capacity bars restored.

Good luck, but we don't have to guess. Another variable that is very easy to test for.
I think Turbo2Ltr mentioned he had a shop with ac he could park in (but wanted us to pay his ac bill if he turned it on :-)). It may take several days for the sw and/or the battery chemistry to respond (why they had to keep them for > 1 week?).

User avatar
planet4ever
Posts: 4674
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:53 pm
Delivery Date: 02 May 2011
Leaf Number: 1537
Location: Morgan Hill, CA, south of San Jose

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:13 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Also note that it seems that according to the service manual as the battery degrades Nissan adjusts the meaning of the bars as a function of temperature:
LEAF Service Manual, Revision: 2011 April, pages MWI-20-21 wrote:RELATIONSHIPS OF THE NUMBER OF LIGHTING SEGMENTS OF LI-ION BATTERY TEMPERATURE GAUGE AND LI-ION BATTERY TEMPERATURE
0 Bars: Up to -5C (23F)
1 Bar: -15C (5F) to -2C (28F)
2 Bars: -12C (10F) to 2C (36F)
3 Bars: -8C (18F) to 4C (39F)
4 Bars: -5C (23F) to 15C (59F)
5 Bars: -3C (27F) to 27C (81F)
6 Bars: 10C (50F) to 38C (100F)
7 Bars: 23C (73F) to 47C (117F)
8 Bars: 36C (97F) to 49C (120F)
9 Bars: 47C (117F) to 52C (126F)
10 Bars: 49C (120F) to 56C (133F)
11 Bars: 52C (126F) to 59C (138F)
12 Bars: 56C (133F) and above
(Please note that I have interpreted the graph so that the range values can be read as numbers.)
Thank you for doing this. I have used your numbers to replace the ones in the Wiki. Those were originally added to the Wiki last December by drees, who says he "just pulled the data from the forum somewhere."

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:52 pm

TickTock wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:While everybody is pontificating about temperature adjustments to available capacity, please address why I had 15-18% loss of RANGE / AUTONOMY in 75F temperatures? And a similar numbers of performance reduction from other LEAFs in other "hospitable" climates?

Is the rational that it would just get worse with temperature, and then magically improve as the temperature returns to hospitable? If so, then we can just take one of the many affected Arizona LEAFs, and air condition it overnight, and then wake up early with a full, cooler 100% charge in 75F early morning in Phoenix, and voila, range and capacity bars restored.

Good luck, but we don't have to guess. Another variable that is very easy to test for.
I think Turbo2Ltr mentioned he had a shop with ac he could park in (but wanted us to pay his ac bill if he turned it on :-)). It may take several days for the sw and/or the battery chemistry to respond (why they had to keep them for > 1 week?).
If there is some sort of regulation of charge level by the BMS in relation to temperature, it would probably be set up to require long term exposure, or else one QC trip, or one weekend in the mountains, could have drastic effects.

My car is currently taking a "one week increased average ambient temperature test", in the Redding CA Nissan Dealer's sunny lot, since last Thursday.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9573" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My LEAF is now receiving about 10-15 F higher average temps, than it's ever seen for that long a period, as it's quite a bit cooler at my home at ~2,000 ft elevation, and I always park in a cool shaded carport, on the North side of my house.

I don't expect 11 bars when I pick it up, but I wouldn't be shocked to see it, either.

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/reddin ... her/327134" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
no condition is permanent

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:53 pm

TickTock wrote:We have confirmed the loss through many means: power from the wall, driving range, gids, bars, carwings, etc. All have consistent results.

The car s/w has nothing to do with the accuracy of my wall power meter nor the number of miles I drive. This was the point I was trying to make - we aren't just basing this on one source of information - it has been confirmed through several different means. Some of which have no dependence on the car s/w or interpretation of OBD messages.
The issue with the idea of multiple means to base your assumptions is that they are all using the same base data to present their results.

I have not seen any other sources of base data except the data that is presented on the can-bus that is in-turn used by the Gid meters, charger, and systems that determine how much energy is available to drive n miles. Until someone can recreate this source data independently of the source data that is being used now, then a SW bug cannot be ruled out, nor can it be assured that the source data being used for all of the hypothesis floating around is accurate either.

Can anyone say with certainty that a data register that might have something to do with ambient temperature does not have corrupt data in it based on a combination of conditions that the affected cars experienced? No, because no one here knows how that source data is created. No one knows for certain the condition of the batteries in an affected pack are, all they can do is try to interpret un-verified data.

This is why a SW bug may very well be the issue.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

User avatar
TickTock
Posts: 1701
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 3626
Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:34 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
TickTock wrote:We have confirmed the loss through many means: power from the wall, driving range, gids, bars, carwings, etc. All have consistent results.

The car s/w has nothing to do with the accuracy of my wall power meter nor the number of miles I drive. This was the point I was trying to make - we aren't just basing this on one source of information - it has been confirmed through several different means. Some of which have no dependence on the car s/w or interpretation of OBD messages.
The issue with the idea of multiple means to base your assumptions is that they are all using the same base data to present their results.

I have not seen any other sources of base data except the data that is presented on the can-bus that is in-turn used by the Gid meters, charger, and systems that determine how much energy is available to drive n miles. Until someone can recreate this source data independently of the source data that is being used now, then a SW bug cannot be ruled out, nor can it be assured that the source data being used for all of the hypothesis floating around is accurate either.

Can anyone say with certainty that a data register that might have something to do with ambient temperature does not have corrupt data in it based on a combination of conditions that the affected cars experienced? No, because no one here knows how that source data is created. No one knows for certain the condition of the batteries in an affected pack are, all they can do is try to interpret un-verified data.

This is why a SW bug may very well be the issue.
Please re-read my prior posts.

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:44 pm

1
Last edited by OrientExpress on Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

dhanson865
Moderator
Posts: 1496
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:12 am
Leaf Number: 16156
Location: Tennessee

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:21 pm

OrientExpress wrote:Tick tick, I did read your prior posts, and your methodology does not support your conclusions.
@OrientExpress: First of his forum name is TickTock, trying or not you are doing a good job at being rude in this thread.

for the sake of mediation I'll try to be the nuetral party here

TickTock compared wall, driving range, gids, bars, carwings, etcetera

wall - this is power in but if power used isn't the full range this doesn't tell us everything - see driving range

driving range - this could be limited by a software bug that shuts down the car before the battery is fully depleted. I'm not saying that is the case but it's the only thing I can see in the list that everything else relates to and OrientExpress is saying we should consider software issues.

gids, bars, carwings - these all go back to whatever software manages the bottom limit on driving range.

I think what Orient Express is saying so caustically is that short of pulling the battery pack out and testing it independent of the leaf's ECUs you are dealing with indirect data and can't be sure it is trustworthy.

But I also have to ask more to be able to defend TickTocks side here. How did you determine driving range? Did you drive until the turle mode stopped working and the leaf was dead and log odometer miles? Or are we talking some less extreme method of measuring drop in driving range?

I'm not in favor of his style of delivery but I think it is worth considering how many computers are inside a single car and how any possible firmware/software/signalling/measuring error could make things complicated.
Blue 2012 Leaf 195/65/15 tires, 15" Rims
Silver 2012 Leaf 16" stock wheels
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index. ... acity_Loss
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:38 pm

dhanson865 wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:Tick tick, I did read your prior posts, and your methodology does not support your conclusions.

@OrientExpress: First of his forum name is TickTock, trying or not you are doing a good job at being rude in this thread.
Thanks to my iPad and it's auto-correct feature for changing Tock to tick and aggravating those that enjoy that mode.

But my point stands, all of the hypothesis in the 200+ pages here are based on measurements, and indications that rely on a data stream that has not been independently or redundantly verified. If that data stream is corrupted, then no matter how many measurements that are quoted, unless that data can be independently verified and reproduced in another way, then it is suspect.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5565
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:03 pm

dhanson865 wrote: TickTock compared wall, driving range, gids, bars, carwings, etcetera

wall - this is power in but if power used isn't the full range this doesn't tell us everything - see driving range

driving range - this could be limited by a software bug that shuts down the car before the battery is fully depleted. I'm not saying that is the case but it's the only thing I can see in the list that everything else relates to and OrientExpress is saying we should consider software issues.

gids, bars, carwings - these all go back to whatever software manages the bottom limit on driving range.

I think what Orient Express is saying so caustically is that short of pulling the battery pack out and testing it independent of the leaf's ECUs you are dealing with indirect data and can't be sure it is trustworthy.

But I also have to ask more to be able to defend TickTocks side here. How did you determine driving range? Did you drive until the turle mode stopped working and the leaf was dead and log odometer miles? Or are we talking some less extreme method of measuring drop in driving range?

I'm not in favor of his style of delivery but I think it is worth considering how many computers are inside a single car and how any possible firmware/software/signalling/measuring error could make things complicated.
Agreed. Knowing how much energy the batteries *are* storing does not necessarily tell us how much energy they still *might* be capable of storing, independently of the car's charging and reporting systems.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

Return to “Problems / Troubleshooting”