Nissan dealerships torturing LEAF batteries

I think it is fully engrained in the minds of dealership employees to "fill up" vehicles whenever they come on the lot, both when they are new and when they come in for service. I don't think this was a big issue last year when nearly every LEAF manufactured was quickly received by a customer who had been awaiting its arrival for months.

But now sales are slow and LEAFs are starting to accumulate on dealer lots in the middle of a hot summer. And I expect that practically every one of them is sitting on dealer lots at full charge.

Today, I took our LEAF in for service tomorrow. I thought they would probably charge it up tomorrow during service in the 95F heat, but I figured I would pick it up quickly to reduce the SOC. But I decided to check the car this evening and they have already fully charged it. I thought about dissipating some of the charge with the climate control, but it is connected to the EVSE, so that won't work. If they had simply hooked it up and not pressed the button, it would charge to 80% in the early morning. Or, better yet, they could simply not charge it at all.

Anyway, it seems that in light of the fact that these cars already have a pretty limited battery capacity and in hot climates some LEAFs are losing capacity at an alarming rate, dealerships need to take better care of the batteries of LEAFs in their care. Unfortunately, they do not know any better. In fact, I'm convinced they think this is the best practice and see it as a service to their customers.

So how does this get changed? IMO, Nissan should have an extensive education program for their dealership employees to convince them to change their behavior in regards to EV charging. As it is today, Nissan doesn't make it easy for them to take proper care of the cars. If a dealership wants to charge a LEAF, the button is their only convenient option, so it is a little hard to imagine them doing anything different than what they do today. Perhaps the real solution is to add a new "storage" charging mode to their EVs in the future and have it be the default for new cars. This mode could override the button so that it charges to 60% SOC or even something a little lower.

So what do you think is needed to put a halt to the needless LEAF-torture?

If the dealers had L3 chargers, they could store the cars at the ideal SOC percentage (30%?) yet be able to get them ready for a test ride or delivery in 30 minutes.

A software revision that automatically discharges the battery down to 80% if the car has sat for 3 hours at 100%.

In my opinion, first of all, Nissan doesn't care, and the dealerships don't care, because these bad charging practices only have long-term effects on the batteries, which is not immediately recognizable by potential buyers. So why should they go through the trouble? The unsuspecting customers probably don't know better anyway. Pretty soon the cars will leave the lot and the long-term battery problems will be the customers' problems and not theirs. So who gives a hoot?

Even if Nissan cares, by having an extensive education program to the dealerships means that they'd be admitting to how high maintenance and complicated these batteries charging process is. If they make a big deal out of it, customers will get wind of it and customers will shy away because they wouldn't be willing to commit to such complicated charging processes.

So as far as Nissan is concerned, the more vague they can be, the simpler things can appear in terms of easy maintenance, the better the marketing of their LEAF it can be. They only have to put a wording or two inside the owner's manual, enough to cover their butt when the time comes to read it up after the fact. But any appearance of complication is to be avoided at all cost up front. For example, when I went to their car drive events, I never ever heard from Nissan about the 80% charging. All you hear is up to 100 miles depending on factors and conditions, but that's it.

Herm said:

A software revision that automatically discharges the battery down to 80% if the car has sat for 3 hours at 100%.

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That's too complicated and can get Nissan into trouble if people can't get to where they need to be just because Nissan is trying to be too smart and second guess owners. Even if they provide an override button to not allow this to happen, people won't like the complication.

Remember that they're trying to play down the fact that you should be charging to 80% most of the time until after the car is sold, so that they can play up the fact that you can go up to 100 miles on a full charge and perfect conditions.

All they have to do is to provide the bare bone minimum information in the manual and let the owners fend for themselves. That's the Nissan style!

Not only did my dealership have my Leaf charged to 100% when I picked it up (happily, in February) but the salesperson plugged it in AGAIN to top it up even though it was fully charged. She just didn't know any better. Recently I was there to address a rattle. They didn't charge it, probably because there were 8 unsold Leafs there, blocking all the charging stations, but the person who drove it out when it was fixed couldn't figure out how to turn the car off, so he left it ON, READY TO DRIVE and UNLOCKED in the lot, taking the key fob to the service manager. At least he left it in park.... When I go there next time I will put a list of instructions on how to treat my Leaf, taped to the center of the steering wheel: No charging. Leave car off and locked. Drive only in Eco. (I worry some fool will put it in drive and end up in a wall, not realizing the acceleration the Leaf has.) Maybe we should all make up little signs....

Herm said:

A software revision that automatically discharges the battery down to 80% if the car has sat for 3 hours at 100%.

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There's a technical problem with that as well. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.. So that energy has to go somewhere. Where will it go?

Back in June (2012), my LEAF Specialist was always SO proud that he had my car "ready to go and charged to 100%" even after I'd asked him on one occasion to just charge to 80%. That time he corrected himself - "oh, yeah, 80%!" Of course, I got in and it was fully charged. LEAF Specialist?? I hope he's learned some charging strategies by now - makes me wonder if he knew how to charge to 80% or even thought twice about doing that (he doesn't have many LEAF customers). At the time, I hadn't gotten around to setting timers (I just plugged in after arriving home - no TOU rates). Since he'd promised me an 80% charge, I thought he'd have known how to do that... :roll:

If a dealer is overriding your timer setting (like the op) that is an issue but if they are just plugging in your car as part of their service procedure there is nothing wrong with that. You should take the 30 seconds to set the timer to 80% and be done with it. The occasional charge to 100% will not adversely effect your battery. If you are taking your car in for service every other day of the week and they are charging to 100% then you have more important problems than what your battery will look like in 10 years.

Yes dealers should be educated on the Leaf and should understand the issues with charging. The more crucial issue is what effect 100% charge will have on those cars now on the dealer lots waiting for purchase. Personally I know my dealer leaves the cars at 50% charge while sitting and will only fully charge the car when deliver is being made but again that is a dealer education issue.

adric22 said:

There's a technical problem with that as well. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.. So that energy has to go somewhere. Where will it go?

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Run the AC and the heater at the same time until the battery comes down to 80%.

For a normal service visit, there's no point to these worries that I can see. Battery degradation is a cumulative effect. One, or even a dozen instances for being charged to 100% just isn't a real concern. Of more interest in the long-term storage of LEAFs, especially in hot climates.

davewill said:

For a normal service visit, there's no point to these worries that I can see. Battery degradation is a cumulative effect. One, or even a dozen instances for being charged to 100% just isn't a real concern. Of more interest in the long-term storage of LEAFs, especially in hot climates.

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+1, I would worry more about sitting 100% charged for 6+ weeks before the car is initially sold. Especially in over 85F temperatures.

smkettner said:

davewill said:

For a normal service visit, there's no point to these worries that I can see. Battery degradation is a cumulative effect. One, or even a dozen instances for being charged to 100% just isn't a real concern. Of more interest in the long-term storage of LEAFs, especially in hot climates.

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+1, I would worry more about sitting 100% charged for 6+ weeks before the car is initially sold. Especially in over 85F temperatures.

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Agreed except for the fact that the service and detailing guys deal with all the cars that come through. How about those of us who bought cars which were on the lots for over six months? Here is a good example of what the result can be:

bioburner said:

Bought a Leaf 2011, 4 months ago ,dealer demo with less than 400 miles on it. noticed right away the range was only 50 to 55 miles per charge from 100% charge. The on board computer is telling me we are getting 4.7 to 5.1 miles/KWH (when using the "Energy history" feature). A tipical recharge time is about 3.5 to maybe max of 4 hours. Seems like only half the battery is being used.!!! Now that summer has hit we use the A/C and get only 42 to 45 miles per charge. Seems to me we should be getting 90 to 110 mile per charge even with the A/C running at minimum. All bars are showing on the SOC meter and the car has a total of less than 1600 miles. During the hot weather we recharge at 2 am to be grid friendly and spare the heat in the battery.
The local dealer is tell me there is nothing wrong with the car and a typical recharge cycle is 10 to 12 KWH but they were unable/willing to explain why it only takes 11 KWH to fully recharge a 24 KWH battery.
Does anybody have an explanation as to what is going on?

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RegGuheert said:

smkettner said:

davewill said:

For a normal service visit, there's no point to these worries that I can see. Battery degradation is a cumulative effect. One, or even a dozen instances for being charged to 100% just isn't a real concern. Of more interest in the long-term storage of LEAFs, especially in hot climates.

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+1, I would worry more about sitting 100% charged for 6+ weeks before the car is initially sold. Especially in over 85F temperatures.

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Agreed except for the fact that the service and detailing guys deal with all the cars that come through. How about those of us who bought cars which were on the lots for over six months? ...

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Do you even read the posts you reply to?

My post was an example of possibly why those cars are sitting on the lots fully charged. My LEAF Specialist didn't seem to make the connection that a somewhat depleted battery wasn't such a bad thing, since he always just plugged in & fully charged my car, even after I requested 80% (this was within my first 2 weeks ownership and no timers set - it has since been set to 80% charge by 6:00 a.m.). It doesn't appear they think about the long-term consequences of leaving these cars parked at a high SOC. Huge learning curve, especially for newly-certified LEAF dealerships, like Kansas City's.

I found the same level on lack of training with my dealership service manager.
He was surprised when I told him NOT to charge to 100% and why.

Just wanted to let folks know that not every dealer is the same. I was just talking with the salesman who sold me the Leaf and reminded him not to leave the batteries full all the time. He was aware of this and mentioned that they often take the Leaf when running errands around town. They had three 2012 Leafs in stock and two were parked under an overhang and will remain completely shaded all day. The third was actually inside at a nicely air conditioned 72 F. Check your dealers carefully, some are better than others.

Reddy

The whole "philosophy" needs to be changed -- by Nissan Engineering in firmware.

The "Standard" (or "dummy") default should ALWAYS be 80%.

The timer-override button should over-ride just THAT ... the timer, *NOT* the charge level.

The remotre "climate control" function should do just THAT ... climate control the car, *NOT* the charge level (charging to 100%).

The "Extended Range" or "Full Charge" option should be available on the console as a temporary over-ride feature, but only after putting the car in "ON" mode and acknowledging via the touch screen a "negatively impacts battery life" button. The 100% option should continue to be available via the timers (as it is now), and remotely via CW with the same type of user acknowledgement of battery life impact.

I realize there's an inconvenience for those of us currently just hitting the timer over-ride to go from (timer controlled charging to) 80% to 100% (90 minutes prior to departure), and instead having to jump in the car and turning it "ON" ... but then again you could do it via smart-phone or PC browser, and it's (IMHO) worth the benefit compared to the downsides mentioned in this thread.

Just MHO ...

Hey gang,
i guess i'm ambivalent about all of this 80% vs 100% talk. Seems like from the threads there are some folks who charge to 100% almost exclusively with little range loss and some who never qc and always charge to 80% with significant loss. 100% isnt even true 100% as we don't have access to the battery's full capacity. Seems like all of this is anecdotal at this point. Furthermore, it also may be that the charging issue could be used to blame battery loss on the driver instead of nissan's design. Having said that i almost always charge to 80% since i'm not leasing (just in case)

adric22 said:

Herm said:

A software revision that automatically discharges the battery down to 80% if the car has sat for 3 hours at 100%.

Click to expand...

There's a technical problem with that as well. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.. So that energy has to go somewhere. Where will it go?

Click to expand...

AC/Heater/Hi-beams?