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OrientExpress
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:21 am

Vicki, has your car lost a bar or have diminished range?
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

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TonyWilliams
Posts: 10091
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:22 am

edatoakrun wrote:
"TonyWilliams"...So, is that the problem with my battery (and not mentioned in the owner's manual)?...
Tony, you are the only LEAF owner anywhere (AFAIK) who, through careful planning, intentionally subjected your battery to charge levels below VLBW dozens (or hundreds? Please report) of times.
Over 20 times at Turtle, shutdown 3 or 4 times, VLB many, many times, perhaps 100 or more.
edatoakrun wrote:Should Nissan now be responsible for not anticipating your behavior, in the owner's manual?
Let's see, if I drive my Nissan gasoline car to empty, is there damage? Are there warnings in the owner's manual? Are there warranty disclaimers for such activity?

No. Nor is there for the LEAF. How you suspect the consumer should just magically know that there might be a problem, well, we just disagree.

Heres a news flash: there are now several (some not reported here) coastal climate LEAFs that never hit VLB or turtle, or left at 100% charge for appreciable lengths of time, or Quick Charged, which have significantly lower miles then mine and actually have lower Gid counts than my car did last week. My point is that while you're busy blaming me, I don't believe that anything I did comes close to the impact of the preexisting LEAF's battery design on degradation.

But, let's get my car out of the equation. I predict that the future will be FULL of similar cars as described above with one or more capacity bars missing.
edatoakrun wrote:I think it's very unfortunate, that after subjecting your LEAFs battery to these conditions, you sold it, without disclosing your knowledge of its past abuse, and your suspicions of the level of battery degradation, to a new buyer. Now we may never know what the results of your past behavior will be, on this LEAFs future battery capacity. Continued reports on this LEAFs future battery capacity, would be very valuable information, IMO.
So, I should "take one for the team"? I've done plenty of that. My car was sold with a fresh battery report from Nissan, reporting all 5 stars. Any degradation is normal; just ask Nissan. It's so normal that it's not even covered by warranty. My operation of the vehicle was wholly within the specified limits of the car. Being smart enough to understand that when there are HUNDREDS / THOUSANDS of missing capacity bar LEAFs, the market will tank on used car value. Plus, the car didn't meet my mission anymore with its current reduced, but "normal" range autonomy.

Should somebody buy serial number 2244, it's a great car that will no doubt work just fine for most folks driving within its range limits.

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vrwl
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 2:16 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 8597
Location: Northeastern PA/Poconos

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:26 am

OrientExpress wrote:Vicki, has your car lost a bar or have diminished range?
Bars aren't lost until 15% loss, so no, no bar loss yet. As far as diminished range... I don't know because I did not get the car new. I purchased it just 1.5 months ago, it was pre-owned by Hertz as a fleet car (which was never leased, so they auctioned it off). I haven't yet done a 100% to VLBW (or turtle) because I'm chicken. :) But as a baseline for my own period of ownership, it's probably a good idea if I did.
Vicki
2011 Silver SL-Mfg 8/11-Purch 6/12
34000 miles

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TickTock
Posts: 1701
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 3626
Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:17 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
TickTock wrote:Just got my car back too. Was told my capacity was read to be 87% which is also 10% higher then my own repeatable and cross-checked measurements. Only rational explanation I can come up with is they keep seasonal variation separate and are able to distinguish that from permanent degradation. Maybe they cold soaked the battery and ran the test - we'll find out in a few months, I guess.

My capacity bars, also, were reset so I am now showing 12 bars capacity again.
Indicating, perhaps, that a larger part of your LEAF's reduced capacity was due to seasonal variations (rather than permanent degradation) than for those LEAFs that come back with the same number of capacity bars?

Please update your spreadsheet, and add the after-the-check figures also, as soon as you get some.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... li=1#gid=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting. My first 80% charge since getting the car back was 12% *higher* than what I was getting before handing the car over for evaluation. So their 87% assessment is pretty close to my own post-eval assessment. I will do a turtle to 100% test as soon as possible (probably on the weekend). I was on vacation prior to handing the car over so it sat at ~60% for 2 weeks before going [Edit]the Nissan Maricopa testing facility[/Edit] for 10 days. Perhaps all the battery needed was a good vacation. :-)
Last edited by TickTock on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

dsh
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:29 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 001069

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:32 pm

How do we get our Capacity Bars reset???...could this indicate the Testers in Casa Grande dowloaded new software to fix the capaciy loss issue...anybody have thoughts on how the Testers could have added capacity bars back on?
SL-e

DesertDenizen
Posts: 399
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:23 am
Delivery Date: 11 Sep 2014
Leaf Number: 314507
Location: Tucson

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:43 pm

dsh wrote:How do we get our Capacity Bars reset???...could this indicate the Testers in Casa Grande dowloaded new software to fix the capaciy loss issue...anybody have thoughts on how the Testers could have added capacity bars back on?
I just heard back from Scott Yarosh, who just got his car back from Casa Grande after two weeks. He was down 3 bars and still is. They told him nothing.
Fully charged by photo voltaic system.
Nov 9 2014 got my 2015 lease, SL. My third Leaf. Tucson AZ. 5,500 miles, 5.2 long term m/kwh. Let us see if the 'lizard' battery does better than my 2011, which lost a capacity bar at 6,771 miles.

smkettner
Posts: 7380
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:47 pm

TonyWilliams wrote: Let's see, if I drive my Nissan gasoline car to empty, is there damage? Are there warnings in the owner's manual? Are there warranty disclaimers for such activity?

No. Nor is there for the LEAF. How you suspect the consumer should just magically know that there might be a problem, well, we just disagree.

Heres a news flash: there are now several (some not reported here) coastal climate LEAFs that never hit VLB or turtle, or left at 100% charge for appreciable lengths of time, or Quick Charged, which have significantly lower miles then mine and actually have lower Gid counts than my car did last week. My point is that while you're busy blaming me, I don't believe that anything I did comes close to the impact of the preexisting LEAF's battery design on degradation.
I agree. Lots of posts describe the last two charge level bars as the "red" zone when reality it is just the capacity bars that have a red indication.
I don't see running to VLBW as any more harmful as charging to 100%. This is all normal and expected use.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

dsh
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:29 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 001069

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:14 pm

TickTock, can you confirm you were down 2 capacity bars, and now since getting vehicle back from Casa Grande, you are back to 12? If this is the case, anybody have any answers how TickTock got the capacity back from 10 to 12 bars????
SL-e

DesertDenizen
Posts: 399
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:23 am
Delivery Date: 11 Sep 2014
Leaf Number: 314507
Location: Tucson

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:21 pm

This is the full report from Scott.

Just got back for picking up my car. Here is the info the the Service Advisor told me. Surprise, surprise, it sounded very familiar.

My car test at 85% capacity remaining.

Nissan is compiling the data they collect from all 11 of the highest
loss cars that were sent to Casa Grande.

No word on when, or if I will get a copy of the tests they ran, or the results.

They completely removed my battery pack for bench testing.

My car was driven 24 miles total from drop off - to pick up.

The dealership did test for the difference between the Lowest Cell
Voltage and the Highest Cell Voltage before sending the car to Casa Grande. (When I asked for the results of that test, I was told by the Leaf Tech that he no longer had access to the data in his computer system and the printouts were sent to Casa Grande with the car. However, he did have a copy of his email to Nissan NA that had the results.)
“The highest cell 32@4010mV and the lowest cell 20@3992mV” 18mV difference

I did get my car detailed!

I still have 3 bars missing, 48 miles on the Mileage Guess-O-Meter,
with AC @ 100% charge. The car said it was 88 degrees when I picked it up, 93 when I got home.
Fully charged by photo voltaic system.
Nov 9 2014 got my 2015 lease, SL. My third Leaf. Tucson AZ. 5,500 miles, 5.2 long term m/kwh. Let us see if the 'lizard' battery does better than my 2011, which lost a capacity bar at 6,771 miles.

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TonyWilliams
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Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:00 pm

TickTock wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
TickTock wrote:Just got my car back too. Was told my capacity was read to be 87% which is also 10% higher then my own repeatable and cross-checked measurements.
Interesting. My first 80% charge since getting the car back was 12% *higher* than what I was getting before handing the car over for evaluation. So their 87% assessment is pretty close to my own post-eval assessment.
Please confirm that the 12% higher is the Gid count, and not some other abstract. Sounds like they swapped a few cell modules.

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