Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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surfingslovak said:
...
I never believed in any threshold temperature or hockey-stick acceleration of battery degradation at higher temperatures. To me these are chemical processes, which run faster at a higher temperature and slower at a lower temperature. The aging velocity is an aggregate process, and overall battery degradation is the cumulative result of all the changes that took place in the battery. Please keep in mind that these things are analog beasts, not digital. Degradation is not subject to some sharply defined thresholds. It happens all the time, the only thing that varies is the speed...

An oversimplification. There are multiple reactions going on in a battery. The favorable ones are reversible (charge/discharge), the unfavorable ones are not. Many reactions have a threshold energy and rate vs. temp is not necessarily a straight line. Google image search "reaction rate vs. temperature" and you'll see every shape of curve imaginable. Also there are physical changes to the cathode/anode material, plating of metals, etc... I would not assume that any of these progress linearly with temperature. The battery designers are always after better magic that will move the regimes of the unfavorable reactions outside of the expected operating range. They are very deliberately creating "hockey sticks".

However, if your assumptions fit the data you have collected, then maybe that's good enough. :)
 
cwerdna said:
ALLWATZ said:
cwerdna said:
When you get to the form at https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, again, it says SAFETY at the top. If you click on the Help link, it also says "Filing a Vehicle Safety Complaint... You can use the Vehicle Safety Complaint form to register a safety complaint about your vehicle."

There can be and have been SAFETY-related defects in power windows (e.g. door fires due to faulty power window switches).

Per http://www.nhtsa.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, NHTSA stands for National Highway Traffic SAFETY Administration.
I wouldn't worry about the "black helicopters" coming out of their hangers and flying over your house just yet by just sending in an inquiry.

Yes, the word safety does appear many times in the text of the web site. First and foremost this is a gov. agency for the investigation of safety related issues with cars that the manufacturer has not taken care of properly. Some would argue that not having enough miles to complete a trip is not a safety issue.

It does take in all inquiries and what are you afraid of? At worst if only 2 or 3 of us send in issues that they deem unsuitable for there mission statement , they will simply dismiss them. On the other hand, if enough send in problems, they may actually investigate. A win-win situation as we will be known as "job creators" and will see our tax dollars at work.
I doubt there'd be any black helicopters but the fact that you haven't supplied me any evidence that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is the right place in which submit non-safety complaints tells me something.

I think it a better use of time to direct the complaints to the proper body. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sounds like a reasonable guess. The other AZ body I mentioned seems like a decent place too, for AZ folks. We should obviously try to come up with other govt agencies and others that have the interests of consumers in mind.

Well there are people that complain and people that do. Still awaiting the date and case # from your filing with the FTC. I am all for anything that helps put pressure on Nissan to up their game.

I did however file a complaint with The Center for Auto Safety http://www.autosafety.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. This is the consumer organization founded by Ralph Nadar and the people who got a class action lawsuit (and settlement) for the Toyota and Lexus engine oil sludge issues a few years back (I will await the eventual statement that, once again I am endorsing a safety website, even though the sludge issue was not safety related). They even have a box to check if you want to be part of a class action. Once again, I also included the link, http://mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#one_bars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Still not sure they will take into account any reference that is not individually generated and judging by how few responded about putting in claims to either Consumer Reports or NHTSA, it's going to be a long time before anyone takes this seriously.
 
Herm said:
The Volt is a very nice premium compact, and you can get incredible lease deals on it now.. but for all we know they may suffer from battery degradation just as bad as a Leaf.. probably not. Volt does not have a FRICKIN huge temperature and battery degradation meter on the dash.

Measuring battery degradation on the Volt is actually easier than on the Leaf.

The Volt reports how many kWh used since last full charge. Run until the engine comes on and you get a precise measure of how many kWh the battery produced for you. If that starts dropping people will see and report it.
 
Cheezmo said:
Measuring battery degradation on the Volt is actually easier than on the Leaf.

The Volt reports how many kWh used since last full charge. Run until the engine comes on and you get a precise measure of how many kWh the battery produced for you. If that starts dropping people will see and report it.
How much variation do you see from owner to owner and from drive to drive? Are the results closely grouped around 10.5 kWh or is there a wide variation?
 
TomT said:
I don't believe this is going to make any appreciable difference since the Leaf's battery pack is sealed and beneath the car, outside of the cabin environment. Thus, cabin temperatures will not have any noticable influence on battery temps.

Weatherman said:
3) Buy and use a HeatShield for your windshield. It's amazing how much cooler the car's cabin is when most of the sunlight is reflected away.

me neither. i jacked up the car when it was 6 TBs to feel around for warmth and got nothing. besides being sealed in a metal case which would conduct heat well, its wrapped in plastic. the thought of maybe blowing a fan across the bottom of it i am guessing will do too little to make a difference.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
TomT said:
I don't believe this is going to make any appreciable difference since the Leaf's battery pack is sealed and beneath the car, outside of the cabin environment. Thus, cabin temperatures will not have any noticable influence on battery temps.

Weatherman said:
3) Buy and use a HeatShield for your windshield. It's amazing how much cooler the car's cabin is when most of the sunlight is reflected away.

me neither. i jacked up the car when it was 6 TBs to feel around for warmth and got nothing. besides being sealed in a metal case which would conduct heat well, its wrapped in plastic. the thought of maybe blowing a fan across the bottom of it i am guessing will do too little to make a difference.

I think what I'd be curious about was if the car had been sitting in the sun all day and the cabin temp was a nice, toasty 150F, whether the cabin was sufficiently insulated from the battery that little or none of that heat from the cabin was transferred down to it.
 
Weatherman said:
I think what I'd be curious about was if the car had been sitting in the sun all day and the cabin temp was a nice, toasty 150F, whether the cabin was sufficiently insulated from the battery that little or none of that heat from the cabin was transferred down to it.

i think that is a different situation. its like covering a pot roast in aluminum foil. it might not burn but it will still cook.

anything that can be done to reduce radiated heat buildup will probably help. cracking the windows a bit, sunshades, parking in the shade, even parking on white pavement verses black asphalt all probably helps a bit.
 
ALLWATZ said:
Well there are people that complain and people that do. Still awaiting the date and case # from your filing with the FTC. I am all for anything that helps put pressure on Nissan to up their game.
My filing with the FTC? I don't even have a Leaf.
 
RegGuheert said:
shrink said:
Opposum/azdre's car and Scott's car were presumably subject to the same conditions and testing.
I do not make that presumption. For all we know they may have applied six different "band-aid solutions" to each of the six cars and they are watching to see which one is best received. One of the cars may have been a control to which they did nothing.

I'm wondering, did anyone "watch" their car via CarWings while it was in Casa Grande to see what might be happening with it?
I tried to watch with the app, but there was no communication with the car within a few days of reception. Presumably the battery was out (since they found my temperature logger I had stuck between the battery and the heat shield - it came back in my glove box). CarWings has not recieved an update from my car since 6/6/12 (even though I do accept) so no help there but I expect they did a test drive or two immediately, then dropped the battery for more inspection.
 
This is what may happen to those of us with capacity issues, http://www.autosafety.org/secret-warranties" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Good thing most early tech adopters are vocal also. Please make sure and read what it states under Conclusions.
 
TickTock said:
RegGuheert said:
shrink said:
Opposum/azdre's car and Scott's car were presumably subject to the same conditions and testing.
I do not make that presumption. For all we know they may have applied six different "band-aid solutions" to each of the six cars and they are watching to see which one is best received. One of the cars may have been a control to which they did nothing.

I'm wondering, did anyone "watch" their car via CarWings while it was in Casa Grande to see what might be happening with it?
I tried to watch with the app, but there was no communication with the car within a few days of reception. Presumably the battery was out (since they found my temperature logger I had stuck between the battery and the heat shield - it came back in my glove box). CarWings has not recieved an update from my car since 6/6/12 (even though I do accept) so no help there but I expect they did a test drive or two immediately, then dropped the battery for more inspection.

no notice of odometer changes?
 
dsh said:
New article on Battery Degredation and what Nissan is(should) be doing about it:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/arizona-nissan-leaf-battery-problem-thickens-46508.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The 2013 model Nissan Leaf is expected to feature an improved battery pack, and it may be offered as a no cost swap, under warranty for the owners who have reported problems, as well as a stand-alone upgrade for cars without the problem.

wondering...
 
ALLWATZ said:
This is what may happen to those of us with capacity issues, http://www.autosafety.org/secret-warranties" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Good thing most early tech adopters are vocal also. Please make sure and read what it states under Conclusions.


Small Claims Court
Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't. Take the documentation on the secret warranty and your repair efforts to small claims court. At this point, it's the manufacturer who often gives up knowing that the legal rights are on the consumer's side. The manufacturer relies on its own complaint handling mechanism to wear down consumers. once you show you won't be beat by the manufacturer's complaint handling mechanism, you should succeed. The manufacturer will finally recognize its responsibility for the defect in your car and reimburse you.

Conclusion
The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The consumers who complain the loudest get reimbursed under secret warranties. The good customer who goes away quietly gets ripped off. Until auto companies wake up and realize that consumer protection is good business, consumers have to be aggressive or they will wind up paying for an auto company's mistake. Since billions of dollars in repairs are covered by secret warranties, the total benefit to consumers in exercising their rights is enormous.
 
TonyWilliams said:
ALLWATZ said:
This is what may happen to those of us with capacity issues, http://www.autosafety.org/secret-warranties" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Good thing most early tech adopters are vocal also. Please make sure and read what it states under Conclusions.


Small Claims Court
Manufacturers often stonewall the consumer over secret warranties knowing that many consumers will give up in utter frustration and go away mad. Don't. Take the documentation on the secret warranty and your repair efforts to small claims court. At this point, it's the manufacturer who often gives up knowing that the legal rights are on the consumer's side. The manufacturer relies on its own complaint handling mechanism to wear down consumers. once you show you won't be beat by the manufacturer's complaint handling mechanism, you should succeed. The manufacturer will finally recognize its responsibility for the defect in your car and reimburse you.

Conclusion
The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The consumers who complain the loudest get reimbursed under secret warranties. The good customer who goes away quietly gets ripped off. Until auto companies wake up and realize that consumer protection is good business, consumers have to be aggressive or they will wind up paying for an auto company's mistake. Since billions of dollars in repairs are covered by secret warranties, the total benefit to consumers in exercising their rights is enormous.

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to start a new post (probably next to the battery/11 bar lost post) to consolidate all of the possible web sites to file a complaint with? This way people with battery issues and looking at the "lost bar post" wouldn't have to go back and look through hundreds of pages to find someone to complain to.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
dsh said:
New article on Battery Degredation and what Nissan is(should) be doing about it:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/arizona-nissan-leaf-battery-problem-thickens-46508.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The 2013 model Nissan Leaf is expected to feature an improved battery pack, and it may be offered as a no cost swap, under warranty for the owners who have reported problems, as well as a stand-alone upgrade for cars without the problem.

wondering...

Ya, the only place this nugget could have come from is Nissan. I personally think there will be no "improved" battery for 2013 (well, sure, improved like "clean" coal... all marketing). I also think this is a clever plant by Nissan in some interview, or just unfounded, pure speculation by the author. Why would they need to improve the battery when everything is "normal"?

What a great way to shut up the squeaky wheels!!!! "Hey, honey, I was thinking about joining the class action lawsuit against Nissan, but now that they're going to do this, I'll just sit back and do nothing."

One year later, four capacity bars gone, and can't complete the mission it was purchased to do, and resale is in the toilet; "Honey, I don't think Nissan was completely honest with us. Let's reward them by buying another Nissan product to replace this faulty one (or reward them by paying huge bucks to replace the battery)."
 
TickTock said:
I tried to watch with the app, but there was no communication with the car within a few days of reception.
O.K. Thanks! Yeah, as soon as they unhooked the 12-V battery you would lose communication.
TickTock said:
Presumably the battery was out (since they found my temperature logger I had stuck between the battery and the heat shield - it came back in my glove box).
Now they know the REAL reason for your capacity loss! :twisted:
TickTock said:
CarWings has not recieved an update from my car since 6/6/12 (even though I do accept) so no help there but I expect they did a test drive or two immediately, then dropped the battery for more inspection.
Have you checked the settings in NTB11-101? That fixed it for me (even though the data is still wrong)!

In case you do not have that bulletin, here is a link to my summary.
 
ALLWATZ said:
Does anyone think it would be a good idea to start a new post (probably next to the battery/11 bar lost post) to consolidate all of the possible web sites to file a complaint with? This way people with battery issues and looking at the "lost bar post" wouldn't have to go back and look through hundreds of pages to find someone to complain to.

while I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love for all this to magically go away, the whole capacity loss issue deserves a dedicated sub forum with different threads for each focus. As mentioned above, trying to keep it all in one giant thread makes it hard for folks to locate relevant and timely information. As depressing as it is, I don't think there is any way around the fact that this is topic number one for the forum and will be for quite some time to come, at least until Nissan responds in an satisfactory manner or the Leaf dies a slow and painful death.
 
RegGuheert said:
Cheezmo said:
Measuring battery degradation on the Volt is actually easier than on the Leaf.

The Volt reports how many kWh used since last full charge. Run until the engine comes on and you get a precise measure of how many kWh the battery produced for you. If that starts dropping people will see and report it.
How much variation do you see from owner to owner and from drive to drive? Are the results closely grouped around 10.5 kWh or is there a wide variation?

Yes, people report numbers in the 10-10.6 range. The big thing now is seeing how much more they are getting out of the 2013 model. I think I've seen some 10.9's.

I'll run down mine for the first time tomorrow so I'll see what I get.
 
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