July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

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GaslessInSeattle said:
My plan has always been to trade up till the battery capacity reaches 2-300 miles, now i'm not sure if I'll have the luxury of doing that due to rapid depreciation.
I've always had the same idea of trading up - but I decided to lease to take rapid depreciation out of the equation.

I think you can still do it by selling your Leaf & getting a leased one (may be in 6 months).
 
That is not going to give you any more range, however, other than what you might have lost due to capacity degradation...

evnow said:
I think you can still do it by selling your Leaf & getting a leased one (may be in 6 months).
 
TomT said:
That is not going to give you any more range, however, other than what you might have lost due to capacity degradation...
It will in 3 years - without fear of rapid depreciation.

Unless Leaf '12 can be retrofitted with new batteries & electronics in 2016 for under $10k.
 
evnow said:
TomT said:
That is not going to give you any more range, however, other than what you might have lost due to capacity degradation...
It will in 3 years - without fear of rapid depreciation.

Unless Leaf '12 can be retrofitted with new batteries & electronics in 2016 for under $10k.

i think we are losing the fact that there will always be a need for a 100 mile car. fact of the matter; WE rarely need the range with currently complain about on a daily basis now.

i think swapping out an old pack for one that might have slightly more range will be a cheap option definitely under $10,000 (i am guesing about 5-6,000) but a significant change in voltage, configuration, etc that requires a new charger, and so on is not going to be financially feasible. it is simply too much to do
 
TomT said:
That is not going to give you any more range, however, other than what you might have lost due to capacity degradation...

evnow said:
I think you can still do it by selling your Leaf & getting a leased one (may be in 6 months).

Well, I got not only original capacity range, but a far lower lease payment than my previous LEAF purchase.
 
I thought you had purchased the Leaf you sold... If not, how did you break the lease?

TonyWilliams said:
Well, I got not only original capacity range, but a far lower lease payment than my previous LEAF purchase.
 
TomT said:
I thought you had purchased the Leaf you sold... If not, how did you break the lease?

TonyWilliams said:
Well, I got not only original capacity range, but a far lower lease payment than my previous LEAF purchase.


No, I purchased 2244. Trade in was $21-$22k at Mossy Nissan, and CarMax gave me $23k. I specifically got 20782 as a lease because:

1. 2244 could not complete my planned BC2BC trip because of then 13% degradation in RANGE (note, I don't care if that range is battery, software, or otherwise limited; it's just a fact).

2. I wanted to be ahead of the curve of what I perceived, and now believe, to be a significant design flaw that will kill the resale value of LEAFs.

3. The lease payment was less than half my purchase payment (with 1.99% financing).

4. I wanted a fixed resale (residual) at the end of my ownership period.

5. Turning in a lease for Lemon Law may or may not be simpler, assuming this car has the same degradation in the next 18 months that California law covers me.

6. I enjoyed blasted the battery ten times in a row at 136F battery temp, and knowing I've complied with all Nissan limitations, but that is obviously detrimental to the battery. I'll do it again next year at BC2BC 2013, Canada to Mexico !!!!! That should just about finish it off by November 2013, when something new will be on the market.

7. Yes, I've had little mice whispering in my ear how to turn in a LEAF lease (that I will not disclose, so as to not jeapordize those using that method, or my possible use in the future).
 
The reason we haven't been leasing is because it locks us into the Leaf for 2-3 years. With purchasing, we figured we can assess the market and react quickly as needed and compelled. Now I'm even more conflicted about leasing with how things are turning out for the Leaf battery. I've learned so much about EV's owning our two Leaf's and wouldn't trade the experience for anything but it's starting to look like trading up is costing us, enough so that it won't take too many cycles before we are approaching the cost of a Tesla S, the only other real competitor to the Leaf in the BEV market, IMHO. Nissan's dropping sales figures and their apparent PR ineptitude have us worried about our investment even though we are otherwise happy with the Leaf.

We have concluded a few things over these short couple of years: a car with two to three times the range of the Leaf would substantially reduce the tedium of charging and ease our minds about truly "gradual" capacity loss, also battery temperature management is a must for EV's with current battery technology for both the winter and summer months, and fast charging is a must for public charging (level 2 charging is not viable for on the go charging in the wild, at least not for the mass market). I hope Nissan realizes that if they do not offer some substantial improvements, the likelihood of even more limited market penetration is high. Now that capacity loss is an issue, I don't see how they are going to get around offering an actual capacity warranty.

We may end up switching over to a Volt considering how well its doing in the market, to cover the gap till the S comes around, though the Volt is not exempt from sales tax in WA state, which is a bummer. We'd be paying the tax and then not getting any of it "back" when we traded in for the S, which is exempt from WA state sales tax.

for now, there is just no obvious clear and simple path forward in the BEV market and that is very unfortunate.


evnow said:
GaslessInSeattle said:
My plan has always been to trade up till the battery capacity reaches 2-300 miles, now i'm not sure if I'll have the luxury of doing that due to rapid depreciation.
I've always had the same idea of trading up - but I decided to lease to take rapid depreciation out of the equation.

I think you can still do it by selling your Leaf & getting a leased one (may be in 6 months).
 
GaslessInSeattle said:
The reason we haven't been leasing is because it locks us into the Leaf for 2-3 years. With purchasing, we figured we can assess the market and react quickly as needed and compelled.
You can always payoff the lease and sell it whenever you want.

In our climate battery problems don't bother me.

I'd be happy with the 40 kWh Model S - if it had fact charging. So, for the next car, I'm hoping with crossed fingers that Infiniti LE would have atleast a 100 miles EPA range. In winter Leaf's range is a little low for our weekend needs.
 
Weatherman said:
TonyWilliams said:
No, I purchased 2244. Trade in was $21-$22k at Mossy Nissan, and CarMax gave me $23k.
And I see CarMax just posted 2244 for sale for $25,998.
smkettner said:
3K seems like a pretty slim margin to clean, market, sell, deliver a vehicle.
Good luck to CM... I think they may take a loss on it :|
I think they will.

It seems some of these companies are relying on Kelly Blue Book for their valuations. The problem is that Kelly Blue Book does not seem to understand that there are Federal and state rebates on this car.

Anyway, it might be interesting to see what happens to it. Here is a link to Tony's old car at CarMax.

I will note that it still has 12 bars in the picture CarMax took of the dash.
 
smkettner said:
3K seems like a pretty slim margin to clean, market, sell, deliver a vehicle.
Good luck to CM... I think they may take a loss on it :|


nope. that is more than enough. only a handful of cars have more profit and its usually because the previous owner caved into a near ridiculous trade in allowance on the used vehicle.

used car margins aim at $2500 and up depending on the vehicle but like i said. depends on how cheaply they can get the vehicle from the previous owner. on high end items like this, $3,000 is a pretty good margin. in fact, too good. it will not sell at that price.

the "real" money is getting a car in trade for $1000 and selling it for $6500. i have seen cars that were given a $1000 trade in allowance (Program ran for ANY trade in 1994 or newer) that could have easily been sold privately for $7-8,000 but the owner simply did not want to deal with the hassle or the risk and wanted their new car now and the dealer did a great job of convincing them their car had no value.

in Tony's case, guessing prep was minimal (typical prep cost for used vehicles from a good dealer runs a MINIMUM of $800 and frequently goes higher if tires are replaced which they almost always are to pass safety inspection which does jack the price but is a good thing. the dealer gets a much better price on tires than you could on your own) so the above example traded in for $1000, put $1000 into it, book it for $10,000 sell it for $9,000 on terms
 
IBELEAF said:
wow... $26k for a used leaf... I remember paying 26.5k OTD for a new one... and trading in recently at 24k

You think $26K is high? Take a look at what a dealer is asking for my used LEAF...

http://www.hunterautogroup.com/2012-Nissan-LEAF-SL-AshevilleNC/vd/11098012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
IBELEAF said:
wow... $26k for a used leaf... I remember paying 26.5k OTD for a new one... and trading in recently at 24k

I plan to buy a used leaf for $16,000. It will be my own Leaf once the lease is up in another year and a half. Only I will know exactly how well taken care of my Leaf was compared to others on the market.
 
Weatherman said:
IBELEAF said:
wow... $26k for a used leaf... I remember paying 26.5k OTD for a new one... and trading in recently at 24k

You think $26K is high? Take a look at what a dealer is asking for my used LEAF...

http://www.hunterautogroup.com/2012-Nissan-LEAF-SL-AshevilleNC/vd/11098012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

that's not high, that's ridiculous, perhaps they are thinking it qualifies for another $7500 credit :)
 
The article below, and the several reported Volt production shut-downs, seems to confirm that the Volt is not selling in sufficient numbers to meet the current production capacity:

The Chevrolet Volt is leading the pack of plug-in electric vehicles and has kicked butt on Nissan Leaf sales numbers but the goal for 2012 is to make 35,000 to 40,000 Volts. Through July, General Motors has sold 10,666 Volts in the U.S., which should get the automaker to 19,000 units sold this year. In Europe, through June, GM sold 2,861 Ampera plug-in hybrids, aka the European version of the Volt. The company recently started selling Chevy Volts in the rapidly growing China market where only 18 were sold through June, according to LMC Automotive.

Add up those numbers and we see that about 25,000 to 30,000 Volts/Amperas could be sold worldwide this year. Wait a minute, though, what happened to hitting that 40,000-unit target? And why do we even know that number?

In late June, CEO Dan Akerson said that GM's initial target – building 60,000 Volts this year, with 15,000 going to exports – was being downsized to 35,000 to 40,000 units. By continuing to give sales predictions, even decreased ones, Akerson serves to reminds us that, last year, GM failed to meet its initial target of selling 10,000 Volts. Will Akerson further downsize the forecast the next time he's asked?

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/08/18/why-does-gm-continue-to-mention-chevy-volt-sales-forecast-number/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Has anyone found any reports that current LEAF production capacity is greater than current world-wide sales?
 
RegGuheert said:
Anyway, it might be interesting to see what happens to it. Here is a link to Tony's old car at CarMax.

I will note that it still has 12 bars in the picture CarMax took of the dash.

Ok, this is for the search engines>> JN1AZ0CP4BT002244

I'm surprised that the add doesn't mention the $500 ceramic tinted windows.

They stuck the front plate on, and bought a new EVSE package (I didn't include that $950 retail product, plus $300 upgrade with the car). Those tires are off my 2012 (they had to reset the TPMS to match the new wheels, which I didn't do), so there's about 4500 miles on them, plus a few race miles at Laguna Seca.

If a future purchaser is reading this, I'll be happy to offer you the white HOV stickers and registration that goes with the car (never used). Just pay me cost plus shipping.
 
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