edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:41 pm

Herm wrote:
edatoakrun wrote: azdre/opossum.
I think you have damaged your own credibility, with your 7/30 edit to your post starting this thread:
EDIT: 7/30/2012
Summary of thread: This is definitely a problem in hot climates. There appears to be NO correlation to car color, air conditioned garages, 80% charging, driving efficiency, miles driven, quick charging, or anything else beside outside ambient temperature.
I doubt he/she will give you more information if you insult them.. from all the data posted in this long thread the common denominator appears to be Arizona.. must be contaminated electrons from that sewage cooled nuclear plant.
Actually Herm, I believe I made the utmost efforts to not insult them, much as I try to do when you make one of your absurd statements in regard to anthropogenic climate change.

In fact, while long term battery exposure to higher temperatures clearly seems to be the largest factor in capacity bar disappearance, very few of those with the multiple bar losses have posted as much information about their battery care practices as these two have, and I have credited them for their initial candor.

Our exchange of comments, on the first day of this thread, over three months ago:
azdre wrote:
Let's see if I can answer all of your questions:

* We always charge to 100% (we drive it a lot, 17,000 miles in 14 months of driving).
* We do 'top it off' a lot. That's the one item we got 4/5 stars on the battery check in March 2012.
* The car sat at 100% for a month in May, 2011, not plugged in.
* It's almost always garaged or in covered parking.
* We get the low battery warning about once a month.
* Never turtled. Been meaning to try this out though.
* We've QC'd 2-3 times this spring.
* There's been no error messages (aside from the A/C fiasco last summer, please don't make me relive that one.)
* My husband is a nut about keeping the tire pressure monitored and consistant.
* I'll pull the carwings data and add it to here tonight.

I'm thinking I should take it in to the dealer for some documentation even if they turn me away initially.

I replied:
Yes, I would, in your situation.

I don't intend to be critical, but given your location, if heat and time spent at 100% charge are the greatest variables in loss of capacity, Your 12th bar, could perhaps, be just be the first "canary" to stop signing.

Please report back, when you find out more, about how much range and kWh capacity that bar corresponds to.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 2&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is, however, irresponsible, IMO, for any one to use the edit function on the first post of a thread, to post, as a summary of the thread, their own opinions, not held my many (and probably most, in this case) of the participants in the discussion.
azdre

EDIT: 7/30/2012
Summary of thread: This is definitely a problem in hot climates. There appears to be NO correlation to car color, air conditioned garages, 80% charging, driving efficiency, miles driven, quick charging, or anything else beside outside ambient temperature...
I chose my words very carefully when I made the comment you quoted, and I still hold the same opinion, today.
no condition is permanent

User avatar
TonyWilliams
Posts: 10091
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:30 pm

Gonewild wrote:
Yes I am not happy.. I spoke with Mark Perry about 30 time in the last year which was great.
I'll bet that you can go back through EVERY single private email, and he will not have ONCE admitted to a specific problem or specific remedy.

Please turn in your lease today, and lease another if you want. Or rent a LEAF for a few weeks or months. Then, you can wait for their resolution (which first would require admitting to a problem), and if that's satisfactory to you, then get another 2013 LEAF lease.

Please don't let indecision cost you money. And don't let any familiarity with Mr. Perry let you put down your guard. Hedge your bets on a known issue.

Turn it in today, before the window of opportunity disappears.

User avatar
Gonewild
Posts: 1262
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:05 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2011
Leaf Number: 229
Location: Chandler, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:46 pm

YUP, I have inspection of the car by AIM company and I will mail the check to NMAC ATTn Early Terminations.

I read the letter they fax me and it says about over miles but I have 25,000 miles of the 45,000 I could have put on so she said I would be OK. I just hope that is what happens. And not prorated.
Over 25,300 miles Plus - Now Sold/ Lease given back to Nissan 8-25-2012
Ordered Glacier Pearl Nissan Leaf SL eTech Edition on 8/31, Delivered March 1, 2011
POWERED By SunPower 5.16kw PV Solar home 3 Solar water panels.
Reserved 4/20

shrink
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 21842
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:43 pm

Gonewild wrote:YUP, I have inspection of the car by AIM company and I will mail the check to NMAC ATTn Early Terminations.

I read the letter they fax me and it says about over miles but I have 25,000 miles of the 45,000 I could have put on so she said I would be OK. I just hope that is what happens. And not prorated.
Glad you have an out. I was going to share my experience that I jumped at the chance to sell the 2011 I bought and have zero regrets. In fact, it's been a huge relief.
2011 LEAF (Sold) | 2012 Volt (Sold) | 2012 LEAF (Lease Ended) | 2010 Tesla Roadster #501 | 2013 Tesla Model S #9001 | 6.827 kW SunPower PV System

User avatar
DaveEV
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6239
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:10 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:We really do need to find out if range is impacted, as I'm reasonably sure it should be, which seems that Nissan didn't test for in Casa Grande. They didn't drive the cars enough for that.
TickTock has already verified that they drained the packs to test capacity and the results match exactly with his energy-from-the-wall turtle-100% measurements which is a more reliable indicator of usable capacity than relying on the dash mi/kWh gauge and odometer.

User avatar
TonyWilliams
Posts: 10091
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:32 pm

drees wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:We really do need to find out if range is impacted, as I'm reasonably sure it should be, which seems that Nissan didn't test for in Casa Grande. They didn't drive the cars enough for that.
TickTock has already verified that they drained the packs to test capacity and the results match exactly with his energy-from-the-wall turtle-100% measurements which is a more reliable indicator of usable capacity than relying on the dash mi/kWh gauge and odometer.
Well, that's good news. Although, multimillion dollar aircraft with absolute state of the art engineering and extreme government scrutiny, still do test flights.

Both the onboard odometer and economy meter can both be eliminated, and still drive the car at 60mph (GPS derived) on a flat, no wind, sea level road should result in something close to 84 miles range (GPS derived). Anything less should match the energy used (external to LEAF measurement) to recharge the battery back to 100%.

In aviation, we might call that a "cross check".

User avatar
DaveEV
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6239
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:48 am

TonyWilliams wrote:In aviation, we might call that a "cross check".
But unless you have a test track at your disposal, the typical person is never going to duplicate the exact same conditions with confidence unless you are able to repeat the test so you can average data...

User avatar
TonyWilliams
Posts: 10091
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:01 am

drees wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:In aviation, we might call that a "cross check".
But unless you have a test track at your disposal, the typical person is never going to duplicate the exact same conditions with confidence unless you are able to repeat the test so you can average data...
No, you can use a dynomometer. I can rent one near my house for $150.

mksE55
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:10 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 5086
Location: Tyler TX

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:31 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
drees wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:In aviation, we might call that a "cross check".
But unless you have a test track at your disposal, the typical person is never going to duplicate the exact same conditions with confidence unless you are able to repeat the test so you can average data...
No, you can use a dynomometer. I can rent one near my house for $150.

Good Point, I own one, I didnt think about just driving it on the Dyno for an hour or so, could get 70mph distance , or check distance set at 55mph. Normally you think about engine cool down but less of an issues for the electric car. Large fan should be fine for battery cooling, I will consider this as an option. but I drive the same roads. the same speed 5 days aweek. you should be able to see averages after just a week or so.
Bye Bye Exxon , Shell, Mobil
* 2011 SL
3 bar loss 23,000 mi
in less than 2 yrs
4/14 now 4 bar loss 32,000 just over 2 years

User avatar
TonyWilliams
Posts: 10091
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:56 am

mksE55 wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote: No, you can use a dynomometer. I can rent one near my house for $150.
Good Point, I own one,
That's quite convenient for you. Dynomometers eliminate virtually every variable; drag from air resistance, density altitude, wind, temperature (controlled indoors to whatever you want), etc. Any potential lawsuits will want data from multiple sources, and dyno's would be difficult for a Nissan lawyer to pick apart as flawed data. I would still have independent source battery tests, independent third party actual road test with strictly defined parameters, and third party administers dyno tests, all to prove the change in range from the "control" new car(s) to your car.

To get a "control" car; maybe go to the dealership and tell them you want to test drive a brand new LEAF for a few hours, to "check out the range". Arrive at your dyno, charge the LEAF to 100%, preferably get a Gid measurement, and the future LEAFscan will be very handy for a battery temperature measurement. I wouldn't waste any effort putting a fan on the battery; it's a sealed, slightly pressurized container that isn't getting much air circulation around while normally driving down the highway (there's a big aerodynamic fairing covering the bottom of the car). NOTE: battery temperature doesn't change quickly in differing ambient air conditions; don't take a hot or cold car from outside, and expect the battery to be at indoor ambient temperature any time soon. Let the car sit overnight inside at a controlled temperature first.

I'd probably also recommend using the same exact tires on the control car as you do on your car. The rest should be simple; set the cruise control on 60mph, but you need a way to actually measure that the wheel speed is in fact 60 mph. There are plenty of ways to do that. In case you don't know, you can change speed in 1 mph increments on the cruise control by pressing the up or down button once for each mph.

Run it from 100% charged to dead. Charge up enough to return to dealership !!! Record pertinent data; how far did the odometer measure, and compare that to the time at 1 mile per minute (60mph) to calibrate the odometer, temperature, front tires used, dyno load required to hold 60mph, etc.

Now run your car and compare. Share the results with us !!!!!!!
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

Return to “Problems / Troubleshooting”