Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Ya Vicki when the pack is full and there is no regen the car drives completely different especially when i drive eco all the time so when it slowed down at the stop sign (about 100 feet from my garage) it was "shocking"

so tomorrow i will recharge to full during the day where should see temps around 105 and a "pre conditioned" LEAF. remember it started at 6 TBs this morning (first time ever) and i did a 12 Kwh QC in Centrailia today. pulled out and still had 6 TBs which surprised me.

so i am tooling down the road @ 60 mph with A/C set to 75 and OAT at 93 and five miles down the road, TB #7 showed up (first time ever!! but keep in mind, last year i dont think we hit 90º all summer) . so guess it takes a while for the gauge to react to the temperature change.

DaveinOlyWA said:

so i am tooling down the road @ 60 mph with A/C set to 75 and OAT at 93 and five miles down the road, TB #7 showed up (first time ever!! but keep in mind, last year i dont think we hit 90º all summer) . so guess it takes a while for the gauge to react to the temperature change.

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Yeah, over the summer, it seemed that I would get the 7th bar towards the end of my 30 mile trip, even when it was well over 100 when I started the drive for the day, so I've come to that conclusion as well. Probably because of the mass of the pack, it just takes awhile for the whole thing to get hot.

I wanted to report my second battery capacity loss:

Almost 2 full months from first bar (14 months total) - it will be 14 months tomorrow

Mileage: 23,652 (3,446 from first bar loss).

Habits between the first and second bar:
Trying to be as careful on the battery as I can, but because of range loss I am having to charge to 100% more often than just the weekends and have had multiple instances of QCing twice in a day.

I reported the problem to Nissan hotline under the same case (just updated the case) today to the same rep (Ricky). Interestingly, Nissan asked what my range was at 12 bars, 11 bars, and now 10 bars. In addition, they asked for information if I was still able to make trips I had before (such as to work, play, etc.) and my driving habits.

While I don't have hard core test runs and data (like ticktock) or oppossum/azdre on range, I do have some general data on my range. Usually I would push my car (not on purpose to one bar or LBW). Estimating the last few miles @ one bar is less room for error, so I figure my general estimates are in a good "ballpark." This is what I told Nissan:

12 bars (last summer) ~ mid 80's total range
11 bars (early 2012 summer) ~ mid 70's range
10 bars (end 2012 summer) ~ high 60's range

My trip yesterday, wind 5 mph (crosswind) and temps ~100 produced a range of ~ 60 miles to LBW, this jives with my numbers. I average 4 mi/kWh and do a decent amount of highway driving.

Odd note, its been a rather cool summer in Dallas-Fort Worth. We only have a handful of 100+ degree temps and maybe a couple over 105+ This is atypical. Today, when I got my bar loss, it was in the low 90's outside (I have never seen it this cool during August here).

Pipcecil said:

I wanted to report my second battery capacity loss:

Almost 2 full months from first bar (14 months total) - it will be 14 months tomorrow

Mileage: 23,652 (3,446 from first bar loss).

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear it. Wiki updated. Latest Wiki stats:

55 documented cases of battery capacity loss of one or more bars

The geographic breakdown of these cases is:
Arizona - 36
Texas - 13
California - 6.

The breakdown by number of capacity bars lost is:
one bar - 30
two bars - 21
three bars - 4.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery,_Charging_System#Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a guy posting on Nissan Facebook page, Ira Applebaum:

"Major battery problems . Battery down to 50% in less than two years. Can't do a 58 mile round trip to work anymore. Nissan says see the dealer. Dealer says see Nissan. Our immediate family has owned 15 new Nissans since 1992. Horrible customer service!"

I am not going to add him to the Wiki without a lot more documentation, since 50% decrease sounds suspect. Apparently he lives in the Phoenix area.

Now plot how many miles these 55 cars have on them vs. how long they have been in service vs. how many bars they have lost.

OrientExpress said:

Now plot how many miles these 55 cars have on them vs. how long they have been in service vs. how many bars they have lost.

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Feel free to do this and post your results. The available data is in the Wiki. Probably not the optimal comparison, since another variable is the ambient temperature, which may vary significantly between Phoenix, and say, Dallas. Comparison for cars in Phoenix already done in this thread:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9548" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very little correlation was seen.

It looks like all of these cars are high mileage ones, ie. more than 15k a year.

OrientExpress said:

It looks like all of these cars are high mileage ones, ie. more than 15k a year.

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Wrong. Again.

Lost 3rd Bar, down to 9 bars only!

Date of Loss: 08/14/12
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Mileage At Loss: 7,767

Click to expand...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=220403#p220403" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

OrientExpress said:

It looks like all of these cars are high mileage ones, ie. more than 15k a year.

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Wrong. I took all of the one bar lost cars that have mileage and months owned, then normalized them for the annual mileage rate. Results:

Mean - 14,261
Median - 14,182
Standard deviation - 3,917

Here are the normalized annual mileages, sorted in ascending order:

7,034
8,541
8,743
9,018
9,122
9,500
9,750
10,400
10,507
10,575
10,800
11,262
11,391
11,400
11,675
12,000
12,094
13,228
13,633
13,867
13,984
14,000
14,068
14,182
14,500
15,000
15,231
15,281
15,345
15,529
15,700
15,733
16,000
16,494
16,500
17,506
18,000
18,444
18,873
20,200
20,400
20,571
20,690
20,974
24,000

I think 14,000 miles a year is a pretty "normal" mileage.

As I thought, the mean is 14~15K, so that shows that most are high mileage. Now combine that with the severe duty environment, and it appears that there is correlation.

I observed two days ago, while I was driving, during my first mile on my journey to work, I lost a bar (first one), was down to 11 bars, and then it returned about a mile later, and I currently have 12 bars.

Is this common?

I have 9K miles on my Leaf.

shrink said:

However, it does bring to mind another column for the wiki - model year. I think we all assumed the reports were from 2011's. That's not the case anymore.

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What's wrong with going by the VIN? That's more fine grained than model year, no? A LEAF with higher VIN number is younger than one with a lower VIN number (excepting the few (?) that may be in the wrong chronological order due to SNAFUs resulting from the earthquake/tsunami), while "2011 LEAF" encompasses a comparatively much larger time period.

spike09 said:

The wiki table is also misleading as to the sum total number of cars with capacity loss. At first glance it looks like a lot more until you realize all the two bar and three bar losses are also listed under a differrent number in the one bar loss section. The seperate bar loss sections need to be combined to better show the sequence of relative loss.

For example, while you can eaasily see that DH was #3 for the third bar, #6 for the second bar and #9 for the first bar it is not easy to figure out the number of days and mileage between those events since the are not explicitly listed. So right now if you want to figure out how quickly DH lost his second bar you need to get a calender and count the days!

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That's the thing about a simple presentation format such as MediaWiki's mark-up language: one can only present data one way. There is value in grouping entries by bars lost, and by individual cars.

If you want to see the data grouped by individual cars, you can certainly create another wiki page for that (but that would double the amount of work in maintaining that data). If I have access to the server, I would stand up a quick Web app to keep track of all that data in a DB.

leiko49 said:

I observed two days ago, while I was driving, during my first mile on my journey to work, I lost a bar (first one), was down to 11 bars, and then it returned about a mile later, and I currently have 12 bars.

Is this common?

I have 9K miles on my Leaf.

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This happened to RickS from Phoenix he got back 12 battery capacity bar for short time, but after few weeks bar gone for good. Can you provide more details where you located and where car is parked day and night. Thank you

OrientExpress said:

As I thought, the mean is 14~15K, so that shows that most are high mileage. Now combine that with the severe duty environment, and it appears that there is correlation.

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15k is about average mileage per year. Also, scatter plotting mileage vs loss shows no significant trend. Correlation? Do the math.

EdmondLeaf said:

leiko49 said:

I observed two days ago, while I was driving, during my first mile on my journey to work, I lost a bar (first one), was down to 11 bars, and then it returned about a mile later, and I currently have 12 bars.

Is this common?

I have 9K miles on my Leaf.

Click to expand...

This happened to RickS from Phoenix he got back 12 battery capacity bar for short time, but after few weeks bar gone for good. Can you provide more details where you located and where car is parked day and night. Thank you

Click to expand...

I live in Phoenix. Car is parked outside during the day, in garage at night. Owned for almost a year. I shall report back if it goes back to 11 for good, would at that point contact Nissan, unless others think otherwise.

OrientExpress said:

As I thought, the mean is 14~15K, so that shows that most are high mileage. Now combine that with the severe duty environment, and it appears that there is correlation.

Click to expand...

Actually, assuming a normal distribution 68% of the cars would fall in the range 10,344 - 18,178. Note that 14,100 is also the median, which means there are just as many cars below that value as there are above that value. There isn't any data showing that "most are high mileage". See statistics from DOT:

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Average is 13,476 across all age groups and both sexes... very close to the 14,000 miles per year driven by the average one capacity bar loser.

leiko49 once your bar is gone call Leaf customer service and establish case number there are about 55 people on this forum that lost bar/bars from AZ, TX and CA. is your car 2011 or 2012 and how many miles on it. Is your delivery date in your signature correct?

I would recommend calling Nissan and opening up a case now, the sooner they get how wide spread this is the better. the fact that the bar came back simply means you are on the cusp. tell them you lost your 12th bar and leave it at that, the fact that it "came back" is of no significance, capacity is down none the less, IMHO.

leiko49 said:

EdmondLeaf said:

leiko49 said:

I observed two days ago, while I was driving, during my first mile on my journey to work, I lost a bar (first one), was down to 11 bars, and then it returned about a mile later, and I currently have 12 bars.

Is this common?

I have 9K miles on my Leaf.

Click to expand...

This happened to RickS from Phoenix he got back 12 battery capacity bar for short time, but after few weeks bar gone for good. Can you provide more details where you located and where car is parked day and night. Thank you

Click to expand...

I live in Phoenix. Car is parked outside during the day, in garage at night. Owned for almost a year. I shall report back if it goes back to 11 for good, would at that point contact Nissan, unless others think otherwise.

Click to expand...

EdmondLeaf said:

leiko49 once your bar is gone call Leaf customer service and establish case number there are about 55 people on this forum that lost bar/bars from AZ, TX and CA. is your car 2011 or 2012 and how many miles on it. Is your delivery date in your signature correct?

Click to expand...

lease date (orphan with near zero mileage) 9/1/11 of a 2011 Leaf
Mileage is about 8950