GaslessInSeattle
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:35 pm

Stoaty wrote:...
I lost the first bar at 3500 miles after just 3.5 month (End of June to Beginning of October - so all through summer)
I lost the second at 10500 miles after 12 month (just before the yearly battery check or just at the start of the next summer)
I lost my third capacity bar at Aug 14, 12000miles, Chandler, AZ, 12000 miles, owned: 14 months (just after we hit 118F)
...
toasted in 12,000 miles- holly crap! I'm getting to the point where nothing short of an across the board recall and replacement of the traction battery for all of us with a "new and improved" chemistry is going to keep me on board. the battery appears so susceptible to heat that any spikes in temperature even here in Seattle has me wringing my hands. I am trying to tell myself it's irrational, but the reality is I just didn't buy the car with the understanding that we'd be seeing such extreme examples of a fundamental failure in design, particularly of the battery, in such a short time.
Gasless: Silver 2012 SL, traded in for Lease on 1/13
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TomT
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:46 pm

Yep, and I know I am getting close to my second with our two weeks of extended heat here...

Frankly, I've stopped recommending the Leaf to anyone until we know how this pans out...
GaslessInSeattle wrote:toasted in 12,000 miles- holly crap! I'm getting to the point where nothing short of an across the board recall and replacement of the traction battery for all of us with a "new and improved" chemistry is going to keep me on board. the battery appears so susceptible to heat that any spikes in temperature even here in Seattle has me wringing my hands. I am trying to tell myself it's irrational, but the reality is I just didn't buy the car with the understanding that we'd be seeing such extreme examples of a fundamental failure in design, particularly of the battery, in such a short time.
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:02 pm

TomT wrote:Frankly, I've stopped recommending the Leaf to anyone until we know how this pans out...
Me too, unless they want to lease, and understand that the battery may have a significant reduction in range during that time, that Nissan is not likely to do much about.

Even my new lease car (May 27, 2012) is taking a hit on range in the past week or two. I punished the living crap out of it with 10 quick charges in a day, at 10 temperature bars (on the BC2BC trip), but that still meets Mark Perry's in person specific counsel that as long as I wasn't in the red temperature zone, "all was well".

Bull crap.

I did a drive up to Santa Ysabel (elevation 3000 feet/1000 meters) this afternoon in almost 100F/38C temperatures, without really spending much time worrying about range. (I've driven to Julian in the heat of September and the cold of March, which is further and 1000 feet/300 meters higher in elevation than Santa Ysabel. Granted, this trip wasn't any science experiment; I just wanted to check out the progress with the DC charger up there (nothing yet!!!).

Anyway, I found myself without a lot of excess energy on the return. Maybe I should just charge more? :ugeek:

tbleakne
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:56 pm

Stoaty wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:High miles per month would also be generally indicative of those battery packs that tend to be cycled from very high to very low states of charge, and/or are heated, by frequent mid-day recharging, above those temperatures caused by ambient conditions.

So I think that the correlation of loss of capacity and cycling that you point out, could actually be, in part or in all, only coincidental.
Agreed. It could be higher depth of discharge, being left at high SOC for longer periods of time in order to do a longer commute, heating from mid-day recharging, etc. The main thing is that this is the first time I have found a correlation that suggests that calendar loss from high heat is not the only factor; something about the battery cycling seems to be involved also.
I agree that all these factors are interrelated, but I don't believe that implies the correlation Stoaty has found with this new plot is coincidental. I have believed for some months, based upon a few pairwise comparisons, that mileage played a supporting role in battery degradation. Thank you, Stoaty, for presenting this data.
LEAF Ocean Blue SL, "100 % Electric" decals, Delivered June 3, 2011
Sold June 2014 27K miles, 18% capacity loss, 1 bar, 5.0 mi/kWh.
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TonyWilliams
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:44 am

The next time OrientExpress gives us the next LEAF revelation, just consider these previous revelations about the battery:


1. "So far, all of the posts on this subject are speculation, hearsay, innuendo, and opinion."

2. "In reading through all the cases, I really don't see a problem"

3. "I have to believe that if there was an issue, it would have been detected and solved by now"

4. This is just a problem with "several vocal individuals."

5. There is so much confidence, he agreed to swap his battery!!! >>> "sure, come on by, and we will put the cars up on blocks and switch them out." :)

6. There are as many cars with reduced capacity as there are with ">>excess<< capacity and they are both edge cases". I sure as heck haven't seen a mention of that >>excess<< case(s) !!!!

7. "If there is an actual issue with a customer's battery, then it will be a simple routine warranty repair."

8. This is just "battery FUD that is concentrated in some posts... Kuddos to Nissan for a job well done."

9. Hey, it's only "17 cars out of a population of 25000 is .00068.... or in layman's terms, an edge case."

10. "for the 0.00074074074074 of LEAF owners..... investigate the myriad of options other than complaining to get satisfaction for your transportation needs."

11. Still no problem; just charge more!!! "'the only complaint being that they have to be "filled-up" more often"

12. "Of the fewer than 10 posters that make up the the vast majority of the posts in the 148+ pages of this thread, I'm probably the most rationale one of the bunch."

13. It's a little battery problem because "in the larger scheme of things this is just a fart in the breeze."

14. "8 or so posters that have been the key proponents of this... with some interpretative data that they have been able to glean from some homebrew devices". Hey, Phil, when will you have my homebrew device ready?

15. And then the insults got more pronounced... "Nothing smells right when you don't have a sense of smell". And then there's: "
One of the sure signs of dementia is paranoia and being convinced that everything smells bad."


16. All of the previous statements are because "I have a deeper understanding of how failure analysis in the automotive industry works."

17. So, it might be a software problem... "What if this whole thing is just a SW bug that is not accurately reporting the capacity of the battery?" A bit later, that was upgraded to, "reputable highly-placed sources suggest that a software bug". Naturally, no data to support this, or any other claim.

18. Some very specific and detailed data from most detailed person on the forum is just tossed aside with... "your methodology does not support your conclusions". This is from somebody that really hasn't provided ANY data.

19. Another "theory" with no data to support it (nor was any offered), "only those cars that have been driven in a severe and high-mileage mode trigger the condition."

20. The best for last, as this post is an all time classic!!! "very vocal and seemingly hysterical schizophrenic ADD owners ... they don't represent the vast majority of LEAF owners.... for whatever reason are unable to deal with the situation and would rather freak out. Speculation is rampant, and facts are few... fan the flames of discontent in a very trollish manner... for many that is not good enough and demand immediate satisfaction... Other than assigning wet nurses to the most vocal and impatient of those that are dissatisfied, it is hard to say what more than can be done."

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RegGuheert
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:57 am

RegGuheert wrote:
leafkabob wrote: 1. Azdre & Opossum - April 26, 2012. 16.6K miles/13 months ownership. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/14/2012 @~19K miles) (8/2/2012)
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/7/2012) (9/1/2012)
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012) (8/10/2012)
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012) (8/10/2012)
23. jhm614 - May 15, 2012, 25K/14.5 months, Arlington, TX (2nd bar loss reported on 7/7/2012) (8/29/2012)
I have added a date in red which shows when these cars would lose their third bar assuming it takes exactly the same number of days it took to lose the second one. Of course no one knows if these cars will lose their third bar before, on, or after these dates and there are many factors which will affect that, including the temperatures in Phoenix and Arlington, but I wanted to make some markers that we could track.
Just a quick follow-up on this post. Three of these dates are now in the past and none of those three made it onto the 3-bar loss list yet. So for this small sample, it does not seem like accelerating or even constant loss rate.

We're getting a lot of data recently and Stoaty has done a great job with plotting it, so we should start seeing clear trends in how this loss progresses.

Thanks to Stoaty and Vicki and everyone else for maintaining the data in Wiki!
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

mksE55
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:38 am

RegGuheert wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:
leafkabob wrote: 1. Azdre & Opossum - April 26, 2012. 16.6K miles/13 months ownership. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/14/2012 @~19K miles) (8/2/2012)
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/7/2012) (9/1/2012)
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012) (8/10/2012)
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012) (8/10/2012)
23. jhm614 - May 15, 2012, 25K/14.5 months, Arlington, TX (2nd bar loss reported on 7/7/2012) (8/29/2012)
I have added a date in red which shows when these cars would lose their third bar assuming it takes exactly the same number of days it took to lose the second one. Of course no one knows if these cars will lose their third bar before, on, or after these dates and there are many factors which will affect that, including the temperatures in Phoenix and Arlington, but I wanted to make some markers that we could track.
Just a quick follow-up on this post. Three of these dates are now in the past and none of those three made it onto the 3-bar loss list yet. So for this small sample, it does not seem like accelerating or even constant loss rate.

We're getting a lot of data recently and Stoaty has done a great job with plotting it, so we should start seeing clear trends in how this loss progresses.

Thanks to Stoaty and Vicki and everyone else for maintaining the data in Wiki!

Why would you assume this implies no accelerated loss,, other factors play roll as well , distance traveled , charge cycle, heat cycles. not to mention 3 points is very limited It would likely be average of points. like 1 early, 1 late 1 near mid. and if they all fall off a few days from now. Just seems like your rushing to conclusions.
Bye Bye Exxon , Shell, Mobil
* 2011 SL
3 bar loss 23,000 mi
in less than 2 yrs
4/14 now 4 bar loss 32,000 just over 2 years

edatoakrun
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:38 am

RegGuheert wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:
leafkabob wrote: 1. Azdre & Opossum - April 26, 2012. 16.6K miles/13 months ownership. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/14/2012 @~19K miles) (8/2/2012)
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/7/2012) (9/1/2012)
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012) (8/10/2012)
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012) (8/10/2012)
23. jhm614 - May 15, 2012, 25K/14.5 months, Arlington, TX (2nd bar loss reported on 7/7/2012) (8/29/2012)
I have added a date in red which shows when these cars would lose their third bar assuming it takes exactly the same number of days it took to lose the second one. Of course no one knows if these cars will lose their third bar before, on, or after these dates and there are many factors which will affect that, including the temperatures in Phoenix and Arlington, but I wanted to make some markers that we could track.
Just a quick follow-up on this post. Three of these dates are now in the past and none of those three made it onto the 3-bar loss list yet. So for this small sample, it does not seem like accelerating or even constant loss rate.

We're getting a lot of data recently and Stoaty has done a great job with plotting it, so we should start seeing clear trends in how this loss progresses.

Thanks to Stoaty and Vicki and everyone else for maintaining the data in Wiki!
If second and third bar loss corresponds only to equal percentages of battery of battery degradation, which many seem to assume, and if capacity bar loss is primarily the result of ambient temperature exposure, which, IMO, now does seem to be a near certainty, then the third bar losses for these LEAFs (and others with second bar losses in early Summer) might be expected to occur, on average, after shorter time intervals, since they have probably been exposed to even higher ambient temperatures after the second bar loss, than they were during the previous one-to-two bar loss time interval.
no condition is permanent

opossum
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:39 am

RegGuheert wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:
leafkabob wrote: 1. Azdre & Opossum - April 26, 2012. 16.6K miles/13 months ownership. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/14/2012 @~19K miles) (8/2/2012)
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/7/2012) (9/1/2012)
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012) (8/10/2012)
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012) (8/10/2012)
23. jhm614 - May 15, 2012, 25K/14.5 months, Arlington, TX (2nd bar loss reported on 7/7/2012) (8/29/2012)
I have added a date in red which shows when these cars would lose their third bar assuming it takes exactly the same number of days it took to lose the second one. Of course no one knows if these cars will lose their third bar before, on, or after these dates and there are many factors which will affect that, including the temperatures in Phoenix and Arlington, but I wanted to make some markers that we could track.
Just a quick follow-up on this post. Three of these dates are now in the past and none of those three made it onto the 3-bar loss list yet. So for this small sample, it does not seem like accelerating or even constant loss rate.
There are some factors that I think can explain it for our particular car...
1. We went out of town for a while.
2. Then Nissan had our car for about a week and a half. They likely didn't put on as many high-temp cycles as we would have.
3. Then we started taking our other car on some trips around town that would have been difficult in our reduced-capacity Leaf, so the Leaf wasn't seeing as many miles put on it.
4. And we also had a brief stretch where the high temperatures were "only" in the 90s (before the recent heat hit). :lol:

But hey, another fast charger just got installed and it's pretty close to our house, so we'll see what we can do about using our car to its full potential. :shock:
azdre/opossum, Phoenix, 3/21/11 purchase, 10/2/12 lemon law return.
23k miles, 3 bars lost, officially rated "normal" by Nissan

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vrwl
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:04 am

Stoaty wrote:Just received a PM reporting loss of 3 capacity bars from a new member, gk1. Here is his report:

"I lost my third capacity bar on my LEAF a few days ago and throught this might be interesting information to add to your list.

I lost the first bar at 3500 miles after just 3.5 month (End of June to Beginning of October - so all through summer)
I lost the second at 10500 miles after 12 month (just before the yearly battery check or just at the start of the next summer)
I lost my third capacity bar at Aug 14, 12000miles, Chandler, AZ, 12000 miles, owned: 14 months (just after we hit 118F)

I reported the first one immediately and they had the car for a cople of days and told me afterwards that this is "normal". I didn't get a case number for this, but I still have the initial email response, the battery report and the phone number of the engineer."

His VIN is listed as 05080. Leaf delivered June 27, 2011
Added all three bar losses to the Wiki tables.
Vicki
2011 Silver SL-Mfg 8/11-Purch 6/12
34000 miles

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