Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

sub3marathonman said:

OK, I'm not saying there isn't a problem, and I'm not sure if anywhere in the previous 290 pages this has been addressed, but in the Owner's Manual it states, on page 2-9, "When the Li-ion battery becomes warmer, less segments on the Li-ion battery available charge gauge illuminate because the remaining energy is a lower percentage of the Li-ion's battery's capability of storing power.". So the way the manual sounds, people in the high heat areas aren't losing capacity, they are gaining potential capacity? And it also sounds like even with the higher potential capacity, the LEAF only will charge to fill a normal potential capacity battery.

One other question then is are lost capacity bars the best way to be studying the problem?

One other observation about point #18 is that OrientExpress did provide some data, that his car is apparently functioning without any problems. And I keep thinking that LEAFs without any apparent capacity problems need to be included in the data too.

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Sub3, there's two different sets of bars on the right hand side of the dashboard that are referenced in the manual. The first set of bars are the "Available Charge" bars, they are the long bars that are reduced as you drive your car, and those are referenced in the manual on page 2-9 like you stated.

However, the missing bars that everyone is talking about are the bars that are referenced on page 2-10 of the manual, the "Battery Capacity" bars which are the very short bars located just to the right of the "Available Charge" bars. So the statement you quoted in your post was in reference to the "Available Charge" bars, not the "Battery Capacity" bars. Two different things. You can see a picture of a car with three missing capacity bars in this picture: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Scott_3_bars_s.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; He has an available charge of 100% (all 12 Available Charge bars are lit), but his overall Battery Capacity is down by 3 bars.

chris1howell said:

Last night I joined the "Lost a bar" club. Here are my basics:

Location: Lancaster, Ca
Miles: 15600
Months: 14

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Sorry to hear this, Chris. I am particularly sorry because it looks like your climate is substantially more benign than the Phoenix et al. hot desert climate that has claimed most of the previous capacity bars.

vrwl said:

Sub3, there's two different sets of bars on the right hand side of the dashboard that are referenced in the manual. The first set of bars are the "Available Charge" bars, they are the long bars that are reduced as you drive your car, and those are referenced in the manual on page 2-9 like you stated.

However, the missing bars that everyone is talking about are the bars that are referenced on page 2-10 of the manual, the "Battery Capacity" bars which are the very short bars located just to the right of the "Available Charge" bars. So the statement you quoted in your post was in reference to the "Available Charge" bars, not the "Battery Capacity" bars. Two different things. You can see a picture of a car with three missing capacity bars in this picture: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Scott_3_bars_s.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; He has an available charge of 100% (all 12 Available Charge bars are lit), but his overall Battery Capacity is down by 3 bars.

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OK, thanks for the helpful clarification. I kept thinking it didn't make sense, but in the time I've had the car I've never noticed those small bars. (I just thought they were to indicate when the available charge got too low, since the bottom two are red.) I guess I should have kept reading the manual, at least through page 2-10.

DaveinOlyWA said:

the biggest issue i see is the gradient scale. they should have been made the same. having 20 something for one bar and then less than 5 for another means you essentially get no warning until its too late. iow, we are right back to idiot lights. by the time they come on its too late.

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As Tony suggested previously, in the inevitable battle between the engineers and the marketeers, the marketeers prevailed too often.

This is a common approach with info gauges in automobiles these days. The manufacturers feel that giving owners real information is too problematic. It leads to questions and the undesirable situation of having to deal with people AFTER they have bought your car. So they reduce the number of questions by practicing The Mushroom Theory -- "keep 'em in the dark and feed them BS". They replace gauges with idiot lights, except people in general (and enthusiasts in particular) like gauges (real information) better. So they craft idiot lights that resemble gauges. Which will work after a fashion, as long as the idiot light "comes on" in time.

TonyWilliams said:

sub3marathonman said:

people in the high heat areas aren't losing capacity, they are gaining potential capacity? And it also sounds like even with the higher potential capacity, the LEAF only will charge to fill a normal potential capacity battery.

One other question then is are lost capacity bars the best way to be studying the problem?

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Honestly, I really do not believe your thoughts have merit. The lost capacity bars are explicitly identified as the method to indicate loss of capacity. So, saying otherwise suggests that Nissan made a mistake with their capacity indicator.

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And, as a follow up to Nubo, what was edited out of my comment was "So the way the manual sounds." Having the bottom two in red made it even more logical that they were linked to the Available Charge bars, which take up 95% of the space there.

Question: I have the vehicle set to charge only upto 80%. After the car has completed charging, when checking the LEAF website, It only lists a 75% charge. Is this due to the decreased capacity?

dsh said:

Question: I have the vehicle set to charge only upto 80%. After the car has completed charging, when checking the LEAF website, It only lists a 75% charge. Is this due to the decreased capacity?

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My Leaf at 80% charge used to show 10 SOC bars and 83% charge. Now it shows 9 SOC bars and 75% charge, so I am expecting to lose a capacity bar anytime now.

OK makes sense...I just lost 3rd Capacity Bar and now reads 75% with 9 SOC bars when I have set to 80% charge.

Thanks for the clarification.

DesertDenizen said:

dsh said:

Question: I have the vehicle set to charge only upto 80%. After the car has completed charging, when checking the LEAF website, It only lists a 75% charge. Is this due to the decreased capacity?

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My Leaf at 80% charge used to show 10 SOC bars and 83% charge. Now it shows 9 SOC bars and 75% charge, so I am expecting to lose a capacity bar anytime now.

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FYI...

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/nissan-leaf-owners-hope-best-fear-worst-50263.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dsh said:

FYI...

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/nissan-leaf-owners-hope-best-fear-worst-50263.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Nice write-up, thanks for sharing.

I really never post on this site. However, I wanted to put my Leaf on the list of one of those that has also lost a capacity bar.

I lost in mid July about one month after the first year anniversary of owning the vehicle.

I have driven over 24,000 miles on it now and I have a four year lease. I live in 30 miles east of Los Angeles which can exceed temperatures above 100 Fahrenheit. I have always charged to 100% and have a heavy foot on the "gas". I called Nissan to schedule a diagnostic but now that I read the fine print, I'm worried they will void my warranty for charging at 100% this whole time. I feel duped and am seriously considering calling the lawsuit firm which also sent me a letter last week. The only time it was ever implied by Nissan that you should only charge at 80% was when using a quick charger. All I really want is to at least keep the current range for the next 3 years then I can turn in the lease. I really want the car work out but I feel like this lawsuit might be one of the only things that will make Nissan listen.

surfingslovak said:

dsh said:

FYI...

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/nissan-leaf-owners-hope-best-fear-worst-50263.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Nice write-up, thanks for sharing.

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Funny, it looks suspiciously like my summary on this thread

tokenride said:

I really never post on this site. However, I wanted to put my Leaf on the list of one of those that has also lost a capacity bar.

I lost in mid July about one month after the first year anniversary of owning the vehicle.

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Sorry to hear about the lost capacity bar. Added to Wiki. I would recommend reporting to Nissan and getting a case number which we can add to the Wiki (number to call is listed on the Wiki):

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Losses" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PS California (9 reports) is still in third place, but rapidly gaining on Texas (13 reports).

I feel left out! I haven't received such a letter...

tokenride said:

I feel duped and am seriously considering calling the lawsuit firm which also sent me a letter last week.

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TomT said:

I feel left out! I haven't received such a letter...

tokenride said:

I feel duped and am seriously considering calling the lawsuit firm which also sent me a letter last week.

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:lol: I will scan it and post it on Thursday...Lets just give it while before we feed the sharks though. I want see if Nissan will do somthing to apease the growing dissent first.

Should I start charging up to 80% or am I screwed onthe warranty front? :mrgreen:

I don't think charging to 100 percent would have that much impact on warranty one way or the other.

tokenride said:

Should I start charging up to 80% or am I screwed onthe warranty front? :mrgreen:

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In this Nissan article

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/MAGAZINE/ev_battery.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

is the following statement:

When Leaf was released, possibly one aspect of its technology surprised other carmakers’ engineers the most: Nissan Leaf’s battery has no cooling system. To achieve this, the temperature is controlled by adjustment of the battery’s internal resistance, keeping the increase in battery temperature down.

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I am having trouble understanding this. How, exactly, does one dynamically "adjust" the internal resistance of a closed battery?

Or is this simply a bad translation?

tokenride said:

Should I start charging up to 80% or am I screwed onthe warranty front? :mrgreen:

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Uh, charging to 100% can't "void your warranty." But if you do let it sit for extended periods of time parked at over 80% (we're talking over a day)... that is known to be bad for the battery longevity. (Same is true on the Tesla Roadster.)

I know plenty of people that do 100% daily, and use that energy that day... and their range impact on their LEAF after a year is no different that mine, where I rarely charge to 100%.

By the way, in the original 2011 manual, on page CH-21:

LONG LIFE MODE
NISSAN recommends charging the Li-ion battery using the long life mode to help maximize the Li-ion battery useful life. Long life mode can only be set using the charging timer function. The long life mode is set by changing the [%Charge] to [80% Charge (Improves Battery Longevity)] using the following procedure...

It's either a bad translation or marketing hyperbole... They MAY have meant that a low internal resistance prevents additional heat buildup but it certainly does not reduce or regulate it, and it is not adjustable.

Nubo said:

When Leaf was released, possibly one aspect of its technology surprised other carmakers’ engineers the most: Nissan Leaf’s battery has no cooling system. To achieve this, the temperature is controlled by adjustment of the battery’s internal resistance, keeping the increase in battery temperature down.

Click to expand...

I am having trouble understanding this. How, exactly, does one dynamically "adjust" the internal resistance of a closed battery?

Click to expand...

grommet said:

tokenride said:

Should I start charging up to 80% or am I screwed onthe warranty front? :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

Uh, charging to 100% can't "void your warranty." But if you do let it sit for extended periods of time parked at over 80% (we're talking over a day)... that is known to be bad for the battery longevity. (Same is true on the Tesla Roadster.)

I know plenty of people that do 100% daily, and use that energy that day... and their range impact on their LEAF after a year is no different that mine, where I rarely charge to 100%.

By the way, in the original 2011 manual, on page CH-21:

LONG LIFE MODE
NISSAN recommends charging the Li-ion battery using the long life mode to help maximize the Li-ion battery useful life. Long life mode can only be set using the charging timer function. The long life mode is set by changing the [%Charge] to [80% Charge (Improves Battery Longevity)] using the following procedure...

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Thank you for clarifying I read the exculsion incorrectly..
So umm.. from what I gather on the warranty we're all pretty much screwed in terms of warranty because of the exclusion of being able to charge to 100%. And thats why were all left holding our shifters in the cold..