dsh
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Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:29 pm
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Leaf Number: 001069

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:45 am

Opossum, I am here in Phoenix, also. Will you please keep us updated if you lose
or gain any capacity bars in the coming months. Also, does any one have
document or link to the "spec table from the Nissan bulletin?", Opossum is
referring to?

Lastly does anybody elses LEAFs get warm (toasty) while charging, like Opossums
does when Fast Charging 440-volt or even 220-volt or 110-volt charging?

Thanks.

opossum wrote:
mksE55 wrote:Are you in Contact with your dealer, I would state this is direct proof your battery is shot and will not make the 5 year 20% or 10 yr 30% rule.
We've had our car at a dealership or the Nissan test facility roughly 5 times now. Each trip was useless (to us, the owners). We're now pursuing other options that have more potential benefit. We're about 2 steps away from resorting to driving the car through the front door of Mark Perry's office at full speed.
mksE55 wrote:I still dont know how you guys can drive in normal traffic and get 5.1mile/Kwhr. On my best slow day extra careful I was barely able to squeak out 4.6. I normally run 3.9.
Precooling in the morning while plugged in. Minimal or no A/C on the way to work, provided I leave early enough and can get away with it. If necessary, I keep the A/C fan setting low (1 or 2 bars). My commutes are about 75% flat freeway. 58mph in the slow lane, provided I'm not pissing off lots of people. Slow down a bit on inclines, then speed back up on the declines. Timing lights and minimal braking on the city streets. Eco mode only. Today's first 50 miles did include a 1-way trek down SR-51, which gave me a handful of downhill miles. Otherwise, I would have probably been in the high 4s per kWhr.
Volusiano wrote:There's something wrong with what you're saying. I think you meant to say SOC was 37% remaining, 63% used.
My bad. I transposed the two numbers, but the math part was correct. It must have been the heat being given off as my batteries were being fast-charged that put me in an altered mental state while I typed that on my phone.
Volusiano wrote:But the fact that your calculation comes out to 73.4% battery capacity is very close to your 3 bar loss (15+6.25+6.25)=27.5%. So that does seem to imply that the L3 SOC by Blink is more accurate than the SOC bars by the LEAF.
It's also right in line with the range test we did before our car went to the Casa Grande facility, where our mileage to 1 SOC bar remaining was roughly 25-30% lower than the spec table from the Nissan bulletin.
Last edited by dsh on Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:48 am

jspearman wrote:
spooka wrote:<snip>
As buyers, we were told (and are still being told) by Nissan that these batteries would be OK in Phoenix. I would guess that most owners asked this type of question before purchase just like I did. Please see the following video (especially the last minute) where Nissan discusses what we were all told about the battery system and the heat. <snip>
It's a shame that they continue to sell the car here until they can figure out what's happening. I wrote our salesperson at Avondale Nissan, Trudy Varin, and told her about the problems and sent her a link to this thread, and she's the Leaf specialist there. I hope she is at least giving people a head's up about potential problems and encouraging people to lease the car, at the very least. She had been told that only five or six cars were affected, but I educated her on the number we have here at MNL.
I think they "have" to continue sell them the same way as before in these hot climates otherwise they would be "admitting" that there is a problem. And I mean this from a legal perspective. Certainly lawyers on both sides understand this. The trouble is with telling the sales people about this thread/wiki is that they can no longer claim they didn't know or only knew it was a few isolated cases.
100K EV miles and 80% EV usage
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dsh
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:39 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-io ... advantages

Check this out re: "high ambient temperature"...
Note: High charge levels and elevated temperatures (whether from charging or ambient air) hasten capacity loss.[48] J. Brodd, Chem 2004">Winter & Brodd 2004, p. 4258
I emailed Mark Perry, Nissan North America's Product Planning and Advanced Technology Director Mark.Perry@nissan-usa.com on AUGUST 15, 2012 and he read my email regarding my LEAF's Battery Capacity Loss. I actually spoke to Mark Perry, Nissan North America's Product Planning and Advanced Technology Director later in AUGUST 2012. We talked for approximately 3-4 minutes. He didn't seem so interested in determining the root cause of the LEAF's Battery Capacity Loss issue. Mark made the comment particular to my vehicle with 3 capacity bars lost that (paraphrasing)'...well that battery must not of been cared for very good…'
When I heard that I explained it was many other vehicles as well, that had similar Battery Capacity loss issues in Arizona, California, Texas, etc...then he went into his spiel that Nissan just started testing affected LEAF cars and that they are trying to learn the drivers habits with the state of the batteries with making a determination if there is any problem.
Prior to this I also received a call back from Representative Peter Haynes at Nissan Executive Relations, due to I left a message for Mark the previous day. Peter Haynes told me his spiel, stating he's not a Nissan LEAF expert, but to call (877) NO GAS EV (or 877-664-2738), which I have already did. I called him back a few days later and asked for Mark Perry and he said "I don't even know who Mark Perry is". I hung up and called him again the next day and left him a voicemail message stating why are you lying about knowing Mark Perry. Peter Haynes left me a voicemail saying he did say he didn’t know Mark Perry and gets a lot of calls for Mark Perry, and lies to prevent future calls.
Lastly, I called Avondale Nissan this past week and told the Service Advisor I wanted warranty work done to replace the batteries, since 3 bar capacity loss on a car with 8,000 mile is hardly 'GRADUAL'...I told them to get authorization from Nissan Corporate Headquarters...I got a message back from a different advisor, stating his spiel...they are investigating and to call (877) NO GAS EV (or 877-664-2738),...He then goes on to say the "Dealerships are out of the loop.” I thanked him for wasting my time.
These guys from Corporate to the Dealerships are all smoke and mirrors... We may as well as start saving towards a new $13,000.00 battery pack. I don't think this 'Investigation' is nor will be going anywhere. Call Nissan Corporate at 615-725-1000 and ask for Mark Perry and complain. Email Mark Perry at Mark.Perry@nissan-usa.com and complain. Call Peter Haynes-Nissan Executive Relations Representative at 615-725-7447 and complain.
Last edited by dsh on Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:59 am, edited 8 times in total.
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TomT
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:59 am

At this point, I don't believe that Nissan has a whole lot of credibility left... It's almost a certainty that my next EV will not be a Nissan/Infiniti...
dsh wrote:Check this out...
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
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opossum
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:05 am

dsh wrote:Opossum, I am here in Phoenix, also. Will you please keep us updated if you lose or gain any capacity bars in the coming months.
I do what I can to keep everyone updated on the capacity loss with our car and various others in the Phoenix area.
dsh wrote:Also, does any one have document or link to the "spec table from the Nissan bulletin?", Opossum is referring to?
You can download it from http://www.NissanHelp.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Search for NTB11-076a. Or send me a message with your email address and I can send it to you.
dsh wrote:Lastly does anybody elses LEAFs get warm (toasty) while charging, like Opossums does when Fast Charging 440-volt or even 220-volt or 110-volt charging?
It's inevitable. Physics and a lack of a TMS are keeping our batteries from staying cool during charging, and especially during fast charging.

dsh, check out your forum inbox in a few minutes. If you didn't already know, there's a lawyer in the valley who has been researching this capacity loss issue, has several Leaf owners lined up for a lawsuit, and is almost ready to open a can of whoop@ss on Nissan. I'll send you the details.
azdre/opossum, Phoenix, 3/21/11 purchase, 10/2/12 lemon law return.
23k miles, 3 bars lost, officially rated "normal" by Nissan

dsh
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:18 am

Will do on all fronts...thanks for the share.
opossum wrote:
dsh wrote:Opossum, I am here in Phoenix, also. Will you please keep us updated if you lose or gain any capacity bars in the coming months.
I do what I can to keep everyone updated on the capacity loss with our car and various others in the Phoenix area.
dsh wrote:Also, does any one have document or link to the "spec table from the Nissan bulletin?", Opossum is referring to?
You can download it from http://www.NissanHelp.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Search for NTB11-076a. Or send me a message with your email address and I can send it to you.
dsh wrote:Lastly does anybody elses LEAFs get warm (toasty) while charging, like Opossums does when Fast Charging 440-volt or even 220-volt or 110-volt charging?
It's inevitable. Physics and a lack of a TMS are keeping our batteries from staying cool during charging, and especially during fast charging.

dsh, check out your forum inbox in a few minutes. If you didn't already know, there's a lawyer in the valley who has been researching this capacity loss issue, has several Leaf owners lined up for a lawsuit, and is almost ready to open a can of whoop@ss on Nissan. I'll send you the details.
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Stoaty
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:15 am

dsh wrote:I called him back a few days later and asked for Mark Perry and he said "I don't even know who Mark Perry is". I hung up and called him again the next day and left him a voicemail message stating why are you lying about knowing Mark Perry. Peter Haynes left me a voicemail saying he did say he didn’t know Mark Perry and gets a lot of calls for Mark Perry, and lies to prevent future calls.
He actually admitted lying about it???
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dsh
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:55 am

He said he has to say it, as he gets so many misdrected calls asking for Mark Perry...some corporate culture, eh?
Stoaty wrote:
dsh wrote:I called him back a few days later and asked for Mark Perry and he said "I don't even know who Mark Perry is". I hung up and called him again the next day and left him a voicemail message stating why are you lying about knowing Mark Perry. Peter Haynes left me a voicemail saying he did say he didn’t know Mark Perry and gets a lot of calls for Mark Perry, and lies to prevent future calls.
He actually admitted lying about it???
Last edited by dsh on Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:56 am

dsh wrote: I actually spoke to Mark Perry, Nissan North America's Product Planning and Advanced Technology Director.... He didn't seem so interested in determining the root cause of the LEAF's Battery Capacity Loss issue. Mark made the comment particular to my vehicle with 3 capacity bars lost that (paraphrasing)'...well that battery must not of been cared for very good… they are trying to learn the drivers habits with the state of the batteries with making a determination if there is any problem.
Since it is absolutely obvious that Nissan is going to blame the consumer with bad operating habits and still isn't sure if there's a problem, I think if I were directly affected, I'd start planning for the worst. Remember, at least one guy who is claiming to represent LEAF owners as the "San Francisco BayLEAFs official liaison to Nissan North America" talks nothing but contempt about these issues. You don't have support there either.

We may as well as start saving towards a new $13,000.00 battery pack.
I would sell the car before I would reward Nissan with $13,000 of my money to fix their mistake from before the first car was built. Then I'd buy a different EV with TMS, or plug-in like a Volt (also with TMS). In Phoenix, I'd make sure it was plugged in anytime it was parked in the heat, or it had a really full battery to run the TMS.

"Dealerships are out of the loop.” I thanked him for wasting my time.
Here's how we get them in the loop. Send a certified letter, return receipt, to every single dealer in Arizona, specifically documenting the "problem". A letter based on my summary of battery issues and/or the wiki page showing every single reported case, and where they are mostly from. I recommend calling each dealer first in a professional manner and ask for their legal address for legal notices. Reference the person you talked to in your letter.

The dealer will then "know" about the issues as they continue to sell the car to unsuspecting consumers. Continueing to sell these cars with no intention of repairing or mitigating the failures will do nothing but set back EV's further, when you make an upset customer who will "never" buy another EV after "that" experience. Elon Musk foresaw this in 2009, when he called the LEAF battery "primitive".

Stoaty
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:05 am

dsh wrote:He said he has to say it, as he gets so many misdirected calls asking for Mark Perry...some corporate culture, eh?
He never thought of giving them Mark Perry's real number? Simpler, quicker, honest.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
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