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TomT
Posts: 10642
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: Defectors

Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:38 pm

I think that Nissan touting a 100 mile range for so long had something to do with it. Then the EPA comes out with a much more realistic 73 mile range...
dandrewk wrote:I'm curious as to how ANYBODY can be surprised by "range limitation"
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

adric22
Posts: 2488
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:40 pm
Delivery Date: 05 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 000768
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: Defectors

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:13 pm

TomT wrote:I think that Nissan touting a 100 mile range for so long had something to do with it. Then the EPA comes out with a much more realistic 73 mile range...
Speaking of that. I notice Nissan is still advertising the vehicle as 100 miles range. When the EPA came out and rated the Volt at 35 miles, GM immediately changed their advertising to match the EPA rating. Now that they get 38 miles with the new battery they are advertising that. But Nissan hasn't flinched and still touts "up to 100 miles range" on their website.

After owning the car for a year and a half I tend to agree with the EPA on the range. While I know it is certainly possible to get 100 miles in mild city driving situations, that is not realistic for most people.
2013 Blue Nissan Leaf SV
2012 Summit White Chevy Volt

LEAFfan
Posts: 4828
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 1855
Location: Phoenix Area

Re: Defectors

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:23 pm

adric22 wrote:I believe the Volt is far better suited to the average American than the Leaf.
The average American usually chooses to use our natural resources like oil/gasoline, pollute our planet, and gives money to Big Oil and foreign countries. People who drive BEVs have a different mindset and don't mind some inconveniences that come with being an EA. :mrgreen:
2013 LEAF SV Del. 2/28/13
2013 LEAF World Record for Most Miles Driven On One Charge-188 miles/8.8 m/kW h
4.8 kW DC PV ($ .91/W fully installed)/ Dec., 2010

TEG
Posts: 1388
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Defectors

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:31 pm

adric22 wrote:
TomT wrote:I think that Nissan touting a 100 mile range for so long had something to do with it. Then the EPA comes out with a much more realistic 73 mile range...
Speaking of that. I notice Nissan is still advertising the vehicle as 100 miles range...
Maybe it has something to do with CARB ZEV credits?

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/fa ... torial.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
See page 46.
Vehicles which offer 100 mile range with "Fast Refueling" are considered "Type III" and qualify for 4 credits per vehicle.
100 mile range without "Fast Refueling" is a Type II for 3 credits.
Vehicles offering 75-100 mile range are Type 1.5 and offer only 2.5 credits per vehicle.

I think the CARB credit system is going to become even more aggressive in 2012, so we may expect to see vehicle changes in an effort to sell/lease even more EVs & PHEVs per manufacturer, and make sure they maximize how many credits per vehicle they qualify to receive.

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TomT
Posts: 10642
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: Defectors

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:33 pm

And people with that mindset are in the vast minority so if we want BEVs to ever become even remotely mainstream, that line of logic will not work.
LEAFfan wrote:The average American usually chooses to use our natural resources like oil/gasoline, pollute our planet, and gives money to Big Oil and foreign countries. People who drive BEVs have a different mindset and don't mind some inconveniences that come with being an EA. :mrgreen:
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

User avatar
TomT
Posts: 10642
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: Defectors

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:34 pm

CARB credits should be based on the EPA numbers, period. Then there is no room for gaming the system.
TEG wrote:Maybe it has something to do with CARB ZEV credits?
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

padamson1
Posts: 308
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 4:58 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 9240
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Defectors

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:45 pm

adric22 wrote:Well, since my wife got the Volt, I've been suggesting to interested people the Volt rather than the Leaf. I still love my Leaf and I'm very happy with it. I have no intention of getting rid of it. But now that you can lease a Volt for basically the same price as a Leaf, I believe the Volt is far better suited to the average American than the Leaf.
LEAFfan wrote:The average American usually chooses to use our natural resources like oil/gasoline, pollute our planet, and gives money to Big Oil and foreign countries. People who drive BEVs have a different mindset and don't mind some inconveniences that come with being an EA.
I think the real question is not what suits the average American, but whether what they want is what they need.

If you look at what most people are driving today, it is obvious to me that the average American buys a car that will cover ALL of their possible needs. Even if most people drive by themselves well within a LEAF's range >95% of the time, they want a car that will fit their whole family, carry that sheet of plywood they might buy at Home Depot, or can go on that annual trip across the country. It's the American way to buy something that covers the worst case scenario. Even if it would be financially more practical to rent or borrow a vehicle for those few times a year they need something huge, the convenience of having that vehicle 24/7 outweighs any practically thoughts. I don't see this mindset changing anytime soon. So I believe the LEAF only works for an average American as a second vehicle.

That's not to say it can't be a primary vehicle, it just requires a significant change in the way people do things now. We had planned on having just the LEAF but my wife just took a job that requires a car, the kids need something when they're home from college, and when it snows we need 4-wheel drive to get anywhere. So we repo'd our old car back from our (college age) child. Soon the kids will be permanently gone and my wife will retire, then the LEAF will become the primary car. We'll give the ICE back, buy Blizzaks for the LEAF, and go back to using ZipCar or Hertz when we need that special purpose vehicle (and we'll rent the exact one we need for that job). We've calculated the annual rental charges will be about half the cost of maintenance & insurance for a comparable vehicle (rentals are new cars not used beaters). So when you consider the purchase costs, we'll get a huge yearly savings at the price of planning and convenience.

We're excited for that time...I don't think the average American is.

downeykp
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Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:11 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 1931
Location: Keaau, HI

Re: Defectors

Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:49 pm

Nissan kind of put themselves in this catch 22 position. Touting 100 MPe knowing that under most circumstances there is no way anyone was going to get 100 MPe. At the same time they were telling us that we should not charge all of the time to 100%. You can't have it both ways. They put this car on the market before it was ready for Primetime. But we bought all of the hype.
They need a remedy for ALL Leaf owners because there is obviously a problem with the battery. Just because some do not live in a harsh climate should not make any difference. The batteries are still defective. They need to make this right or the EV movement will never take off. At this point I would not recommend this car to anyone and I have not had any trouble with my Leaf.
2011 Black Leaf SL+QC Vin. 1931
Res. 6-14-10 Order 1-25-11
EVSE: Mod'd Ver. 2 Nissan L1
Delivered 5-31-11

8 years 33000mi. 7 bars

39 Suniva panels 10.3kw with Enphase micro inverters my electricity cost $26 a month.

thankyouOB
Posts: 3583
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:14 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 1442
Location: Coastal LA

Re: Defectors

Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:35 pm

padamson1 wrote: If you look at what most people are driving today, it is obvious to me that the average American buys a car that will cover ALL of their possible needs. Even if most people drive by themselves well within a LEAF's range >95% of the time, they want a car that will fit their whole family, carry that sheet of plywood they might buy at Home Depot, or can go on that annual trip across the country....
Yes and Yes.

My neighbor was bemoaning to my wife and me that he has to replace the last in a series of rear-wheel drive buick (yacht) wagons that they have had over the past 20 years. They had five children and the car was packed all the time during the growth years. the children all are grown and moved far away.
They all rent a car when they come home.
She wants another large wagon and he wants to get her into something more reasonable, such as an Audi A4 wagon.
Alas, he is stuck with her stuck on the idea that she needs a big car to occasionally haul something, even if she is not sure what.
may reserve/delivery 4/30/11
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ECOtality/LADWP/ Blink 4/4/11
--
Gardena Nissan, msrp -1k
red SL with etec L3
SOLAR POWERED since 2008

padamson1
Posts: 308
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 4:58 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 9240
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Defectors

Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:50 pm

thankyouOB wrote:My neighbor was bemoaning to my wife and me that he has to replace the last in a series of rear-wheel drive buick (yacht) wagons that they have had over the past 20 years. They had five children and the car was packed all the time during the growth years. the children all are grown and moved far away.
They all rent a car when they come home.
She wants another large wagon and he wants to get her into something more reasonable, such as an Audi A4 wagon.
Alas, he is stuck with her stuck on the idea that she needs a big car to occasionally haul something, even if she is not sure what.
Funny that the kids go to the trouble of renting and the Dad still thinks he needs to haul the whole crew.

The Audi A4 Quattro is an awesome car, my nephew has one and it can handle ANY weather conditions. We chose a CVT Subaru Impreza 5-door as our ICE instead, as it gets ~36mpg on the highway (even better than the 5-speed) even with full time All-Wheel drive and is a lot cheaper to maintain. Not the same MPG as the Prius it replaced, but it can go places the Prius can only dream of and is much easier on gas than a Hybrid Highlander or any other 4-wheel car (A4 max's out at 30mpg).

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