Defectors

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

BlueSL

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
261
I have two friends who got their Leafs for HOV lane access more than anything else. Today, one is driving a PiP and the other is driving a Volt. Both got out from under their leases but had to pay to do it. Range anxiety and range limitation pushed them out of the Leaf camp after less than a year of ownership.

Enhanced range cannot come soon enough for the Leaf! Even then, it may not be sufficient. Before I heard about Nissan upping the "freeway speed" range to 91+- miles per charge I told myself that I would not lease another one unless it had a range of 100 miles at freeway speeds. I've got 20 months to go.
 
I'm curious as to how ANYBODY can be surprised by "range limitation", let alone have so much "anxiety" as to pay the huge premium to terminate a lease early.

We all appreciate the need for longer ranges, and that WILL come. Really, though, anyone who didn't see the current limitions have only themselves to blame.

ETA - paying ~$35k primarily for an HOV sticker? Wow...
 
Well, since my wife got the Volt, I've been suggesting to interested people the Volt rather than the Leaf. I still love my Leaf and I'm very happy with it. I have no intention of getting rid of it. But now that you can lease a Volt for basically the same price as a Leaf, I believe the Volt is far better suited to the average American than the Leaf.
 
dandrewk said:
I'm curious as to how ANYBODY can be surprised by "range limitation", let alone have so much "anxiety" as to pay the huge premium to terminate a lease early.

* * *

ETA - paying ~$35k primarily for an HOV sticker? Wow...

The car did not cost $35k. It was about $22,500 after incentives. The lease termination cost in both cases was about $1500. There are primarily two kinds of Leaf drivers: (1) true BEV believers and (2) wealthy people with an antipathy for foreign oil who want to get places faster during the work week. My defector friends fall into the latter category, as will most Californians buying the car from this point forward until the range increases dramatically. It's a small market and the August Leaf sale numbers bear that out.
 
i am not surprised that people got paranoid and bailed. EV history is very limited, the negative slant here and elsewhere is abundant.

EVs are portrayed in a worst case scenario by us and there is no benefit of the doubt, not even a smidgen towards thinking that an acceptable solution is right around the corner.

now, normally that is foolish thinking. "around the corner" has a bad rep and very deservedly so. but in the case there is compelling evidence.

large investment by Nissan
research facility located at ground zero
constrained supply of batteries soon to be resolved
very poor exchange rates

i am surprised that anyone has abandoned ship so quickly but at the same time; considering the above, there is no doubt that thousands have been turned off to the EV idea.
 
Dave,
we are a nation of people addicted to instant gratification and every whim fulfilled.
The Leaf fails that test for many as a purchase and apparently fails that test for some who bought it, too.

I prefer all E to the Volt solution, but that decision is particular to my current situation; 10 years ago, with a different job and much further from ending a regular commute, there could have been a different answer.
 
BlueSL said:
It's a small market and the August Leaf sale numbers bear that out.

I think the market is much larger than anyone knows. The biggest problem in my experience is that 80% of the public is still unaware that such a vehicle exists. I'm finding people every day who are just finding out about it. Heck, I have been driving my Leaf to work here at the same company for a year and a half. I thought everyone around here already knew about it. When I came in from lunch the other day the only parking spot available was the area by where the smokers stand. A few hours later I went to put something in my car and they were all standing around it gawking at it and speculating. When I approached they started asking me all kinds of questions. I told them "This car has been in the parking lot every day for the last year and a half, how could you not know about it?" They replied "We never really noticed it until you parked it here." And yeah - most of them had no idea it was electric and were totally dumbfounded at the possibility of driving gas-free every day.

So yeah - we have a lot of work to do to educate the public.
 
BlueSL said:
I have two friends who got their Leafs for HOV lane access more than anything else. Today, one is driving a PiP and the other is driving a Volt. Both got out from under their leases but had to pay to do it. Range anxiety and range limitation pushed them out of the Leaf camp after less than a year of ownership.
I am pretty sure they got the Leaf because PiP and Volt doesn't have HOV access then. Thus these are not deflectors but people who only care about having HOV. They don't care whether it's ICE or EV. If an ICE is given HOV, they will probably buy it too.

When the green HOV is expired and white HOV is ever extended, these people will flock back to the Leaf again. At that time, their excuse will be 'the leaf has longer range now' and they will be PiP and Volt deflectors. :)
 
Confession time.

First, let me say that I am very happy with my Leaf, which I purchased (didn't lease).

However, there was one reason only that I traded in my 2007 Prius to buy the Leaf - car pool lane withdrawal! And if the Prius PIP had carpool access then, I probably would have bought that instead. (I don't think I would have bought a Volt - I hate GM products with a passion! I can be bought but I have my limits :lol: )

Having said that, I have no intention of bailing on the Leaf unless it becomes clear that all Leaf batteries are failing, even in mild climates.
 
I think that Nissan touting a 100 mile range for so long had something to do with it. Then the EPA comes out with a much more realistic 73 mile range...

dandrewk said:
I'm curious as to how ANYBODY can be surprised by "range limitation"
 
TomT said:
I think that Nissan touting a 100 mile range for so long had something to do with it. Then the EPA comes out with a much more realistic 73 mile range...
Speaking of that. I notice Nissan is still advertising the vehicle as 100 miles range. When the EPA came out and rated the Volt at 35 miles, GM immediately changed their advertising to match the EPA rating. Now that they get 38 miles with the new battery they are advertising that. But Nissan hasn't flinched and still touts "up to 100 miles range" on their website.

After owning the car for a year and a half I tend to agree with the EPA on the range. While I know it is certainly possible to get 100 miles in mild city driving situations, that is not realistic for most people.
 
adric22 said:
I believe the Volt is far better suited to the average American than the Leaf.

The average American usually chooses to use our natural resources like oil/gasoline, pollute our planet, and gives money to Big Oil and foreign countries. People who drive BEVs have a different mindset and don't mind some inconveniences that come with being an EA. :mrgreen:
 
adric22 said:
TomT said:
I think that Nissan touting a 100 mile range for so long had something to do with it. Then the EPA comes out with a much more realistic 73 mile range...
Speaking of that. I notice Nissan is still advertising the vehicle as 100 miles range...

Maybe it has something to do with CARB ZEV credits?

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/factsheets/zev_tutorial.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
See page 46.
Vehicles which offer 100 mile range with "Fast Refueling" are considered "Type III" and qualify for 4 credits per vehicle.
100 mile range without "Fast Refueling" is a Type II for 3 credits.
Vehicles offering 75-100 mile range are Type 1.5 and offer only 2.5 credits per vehicle.

I think the CARB credit system is going to become even more aggressive in 2012, so we may expect to see vehicle changes in an effort to sell/lease even more EVs & PHEVs per manufacturer, and make sure they maximize how many credits per vehicle they qualify to receive.
 
And people with that mindset are in the vast minority so if we want BEVs to ever become even remotely mainstream, that line of logic will not work.

LEAFfan said:
The average American usually chooses to use our natural resources like oil/gasoline, pollute our planet, and gives money to Big Oil and foreign countries. People who drive BEVs have a different mindset and don't mind some inconveniences that come with being an EA. :mrgreen:
 
adric22 said:
Well, since my wife got the Volt, I've been suggesting to interested people the Volt rather than the Leaf. I still love my Leaf and I'm very happy with it. I have no intention of getting rid of it. But now that you can lease a Volt for basically the same price as a Leaf, I believe the Volt is far better suited to the average American than the Leaf.
LEAFfan said:
The average American usually chooses to use our natural resources like oil/gasoline, pollute our planet, and gives money to Big Oil and foreign countries. People who drive BEVs have a different mindset and don't mind some inconveniences that come with being an EA.
I think the real question is not what suits the average American, but whether what they want is what they need.

If you look at what most people are driving today, it is obvious to me that the average American buys a car that will cover ALL of their possible needs. Even if most people drive by themselves well within a LEAF's range >95% of the time, they want a car that will fit their whole family, carry that sheet of plywood they might buy at Home Depot, or can go on that annual trip across the country. It's the American way to buy something that covers the worst case scenario. Even if it would be financially more practical to rent or borrow a vehicle for those few times a year they need something huge, the convenience of having that vehicle 24/7 outweighs any practically thoughts. I don't see this mindset changing anytime soon. So I believe the LEAF only works for an average American as a second vehicle.

That's not to say it can't be a primary vehicle, it just requires a significant change in the way people do things now. We had planned on having just the LEAF but my wife just took a job that requires a car, the kids need something when they're home from college, and when it snows we need 4-wheel drive to get anywhere. So we repo'd our old car back from our (college age) child. Soon the kids will be permanently gone and my wife will retire, then the LEAF will become the primary car. We'll give the ICE back, buy Blizzaks for the LEAF, and go back to using ZipCar or Hertz when we need that special purpose vehicle (and we'll rent the exact one we need for that job). We've calculated the annual rental charges will be about half the cost of maintenance & insurance for a comparable vehicle (rentals are new cars not used beaters). So when you consider the purchase costs, we'll get a huge yearly savings at the price of planning and convenience.

We're excited for that time...I don't think the average American is.
 
Nissan kind of put themselves in this catch 22 position. Touting 100 MPe knowing that under most circumstances there is no way anyone was going to get 100 MPe. At the same time they were telling us that we should not charge all of the time to 100%. You can't have it both ways. They put this car on the market before it was ready for Primetime. But we bought all of the hype.
They need a remedy for ALL Leaf owners because there is obviously a problem with the battery. Just because some do not live in a harsh climate should not make any difference. The batteries are still defective. They need to make this right or the EV movement will never take off. At this point I would not recommend this car to anyone and I have not had any trouble with my Leaf.
 
padamson1 said:
If you look at what most people are driving today, it is obvious to me that the average American buys a car that will cover ALL of their possible needs. Even if most people drive by themselves well within a LEAF's range >95% of the time, they want a car that will fit their whole family, carry that sheet of plywood they might buy at Home Depot, or can go on that annual trip across the country....
Yes and Yes.

My neighbor was bemoaning to my wife and me that he has to replace the last in a series of rear-wheel drive buick (yacht) wagons that they have had over the past 20 years. They had five children and the car was packed all the time during the growth years. the children all are grown and moved far away.
They all rent a car when they come home.
She wants another large wagon and he wants to get her into something more reasonable, such as an Audi A4 wagon.
Alas, he is stuck with her stuck on the idea that she needs a big car to occasionally haul something, even if she is not sure what.
 
thankyouOB said:
My neighbor was bemoaning to my wife and me that he has to replace the last in a series of rear-wheel drive buick (yacht) wagons that they have had over the past 20 years. They had five children and the car was packed all the time during the growth years. the children all are grown and moved far away.
They all rent a car when they come home.
She wants another large wagon and he wants to get her into something more reasonable, such as an Audi A4 wagon.
Alas, he is stuck with her stuck on the idea that she needs a big car to occasionally haul something, even if she is not sure what.
Funny that the kids go to the trouble of renting and the Dad still thinks he needs to haul the whole crew.

The Audi A4 Quattro is an awesome car, my nephew has one and it can handle ANY weather conditions. We chose a CVT Subaru Impreza 5-door as our ICE instead, as it gets ~36mpg on the highway (even better than the 5-speed) even with full time All-Wheel drive and is a lot cheaper to maintain. Not the same MPG as the Prius it replaced, but it can go places the Prius can only dream of and is much easier on gas than a Hybrid Highlander or any other 4-wheel car (A4 max's out at 30mpg).
 
Back
Top