Phoenix Range Test Sept 15, 2012 planning!

Volusiano said:

Below is what you proposed for the test in the other thread. I see a number of issues with it.

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First of all, where are we going to find 3 new LEAFs off the dealer lot to use as control cars?

We will use what we can get, and that might be any owner's new-ish car that can charge to 100% with 275 Gid or greater.

Secondly, you want to drive the suspect car 5 times for the whole length of 70 miles each time.

Obviously, not going to happen with the car that gets turned in that day. The best we can do is more cars at one single run per car.

Thirdly, in order for the test to have some kind of legitimacy, there has to be an independent 3rd party

Yes, as I stated and agree. We aren't going to get it done that way. So, your suggestion of media is great, but I suggest we invite the "industry" press to observe and report.

Fourthly, it'll take time to organize

Yes, indeed. Lets call this Saturday a practice run for the "real thing". That doesn't mean a less than serious test, and we will learn a lot from it. The number one issue for me is testing Scott's car, and comparing that to a control car. Secondarily, would be a bunch of 2, 3, and 4? bar losers.


Each car to yield an end results in number of miles, that means that the end reference has to be LBW or VLBW or something like that, right?

I recommend all the way to turtle. We can tow the cars with Nissan free towing right back to the dealer or chargers where we started. We will calculate for each car how far outbound they should go before returning. That means they will be very close when they hit turtle. If it does not go to turtle, I guarantee every stooge for Nissan will say the car could have gone 20 more miles.

TonyWilliams said:

Each car to yield an end results in number of miles, that means that the end reference has to be LBW or VLBW or something like that, right?

I recommend all the way to turtle. We can tow the cars with Nissan free towing right back to the dealer or chargers where we started. We will calculate for each car how far outbound they should go before returning. That means they will be very close when they hit turtle. If it does not go to turtle, I guarantee every stooge for Nissan will say the car could have gone 20 more miles.

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While I understand the technical merit of going to turtle to eliminate any argument about how much is left, it's not practical for many reasons.

1. Safety: you don't want to reach turtle on a freeway test. In Phoenix, being stranded on the freeway at turtle in the middle of the summer with no juice left to run AC and waiting for possibly an hour or more for a tow truck in 105 degree weather is not only not fun, but just plain unsafe.
2. Inconvenience: it now has not become a simple 2-hour test like advertised before. It's already bad enough that people have to bring their cars to the base location and park them overnight, arrange for rides home and back there the next day, then perform the 2-hour test.
3. If we have a dozen cars turn-out which all go to turtle and require free towing all at the same time, the wait may even be longer.
4. This test also implies that not just the cars with capacity loss go to turtle. It implies that every single car, new or old, test car or control car, ALL must go to turtle.

I really suggest finding a way to avoid taking the cars to turtle in the middle of the road so we can get better participation from Phoenix owners. I, for one, would be hesitant to participate if I have to run my car to turtle and wait in the heat for a tow truck that may take a very long time to come because there are dozens of LEAFs with the same fate at the same time waiting for a tow truck as well.

What is the physical address to the location that was suggested with chargers near a freeway?

http://www.phoenixraceway.com/About-Us/Track-Rentals.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How about a pit crew in a pickup with a trailer or tow dolly to tow cars back to the start point.

Tony Williams my hat goes off to you for trying to organize this..

I would like to join in but Im not sure if I can because I work late at night and I live way on the west side of Phx (151ave Deervalley)

Those battery test mean nothing to me any more..I lost 2 bars right after having my last test a few months ago and i know my 3rd bar lost is a few months away..I use to avg 130 miles per charge and im now down to 105..
Im actually trying to use the 80% charge, but driving slower (6.1M/KW) and going with-out AC on for hours takes its toll on me..I feel like im driving a car that is going to need a new engine (battery) within a year to maintain my long drives..

TonyWilliams said:

What is the physical address to the location that was suggested with chargers near a freeway?

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This is antique mall with 6 Blink L2's and no QC's. It is not next to a freeway:

1509 N. Arizona Ave
Chandler, AZ 85225

PADT has 2 QC's and is close to a highway. I haven't seem any L2's there but I think there are 1 or 2:

7755 S. Research Drive
Tempe, AZ 85284

The locations are approximately 3-4 miles apart.

Tony, my hat is always off to you..

Can the last few kWh be finished off by running the heater to turtle.. or does it have to be driven?

Volusiano said:

1. Safety: you don't want to reach turtle on a freeway test. In Phoenix, being stranded on the freeway at turtle in the middle of the summer with no juice left to run AC and waiting for possibly an hour or more for a tow truck in 105 degree weather is not only not fun, but just plain unsafe.
2. Inconvenience: it now has not become a simple 2-hour test like advertised before. It's already bad enough that people have to bring their cars to the base location and park them overnight, arrange for rides home and back there the next day, then perform the 2-hour test.
3. If we have a dozen cars turn-out which all go to turtle and require free towing all at the same time, the wait may even be longer.
4. This test also implies that not just the cars with capacity loss go to turtle. It implies that every single car, new or old, test car or control car, ALL must go to turtle.

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All good points, IMO. Clearly you guys need to be safe as you you do this and anyone who is not comfortable should not participate, but perhaps you could help out in other ways if you choose not to.

Here are some suggestions to consider:

- If anyone has a 240-V generator that can charge the LEAF and a pickup truck, ask a spouse to drive that to the event to charge anyone who doesn't make it back. If there were several such rigs available, it would help eliminate delays in getting help on the freeway and would provide a safer and cooler place to sit while the car charges. Likely 30 minutes or less would provide enough charge to get you back. If you can't get generators, it would still be good to have cars and drivers available to provide a cool and safe place to sit while waiting for a tow.
- Be sure that there is a full roster with cell phone numbers provided to each person so that everyone can get in touch in case of a problem.
- There needs to be at least one person (probably Tony) who remains at the checkpoint to provide a contact point with a known location who is not driving who can help out in case of a problem.
- Everyone should bring lots of water.
- I'm a little leary of doing this without A/C, but you guys will need to decide if that is safe or not.

OTOH, if for some reason your planning goes awry and the LEAFs all end up stranded five miles from the checkpoint, that should make for quite the media event! :shock:

I wish I could come to the event to help out, but I don't think I'll be able to make it out there. Sorry!

All this for what..? Is this going to create solid evidence for the owners against Nissan in a court of law ? or is it just a media event to highlight the problem, to create negative publicity to put pressure on Nissan ?

I still don't see how this will all result in a meaningful solution for the owners.

mkjayakumar said:

All this for what..? Is this going to create solid evidence for the owners against Nissan in a court of law ? or is it just a media event to highlight the problem, to create negative publicity to put pressure on Nissan ?

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It is going to give meaningful information about how much range these Leafs have lost relative to a control Leaf. That is the gold standard for measuring battery capacity loss. To the affected owners, it's the only thing that really matters.

Stoaty said:

mkjayakumar said:

All this for what..? Is this going to create solid evidence for the owners against Nissan in a court of law ? or is it just a media event to highlight the problem, to create negative publicity to put pressure on Nissan ?

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It is going to give meaningful information about how much range these Leafs have lost relative to a control Leaf. That is the gold standard for measuring battery capacity loss. To the affected owners, it's the only thing that really matters.

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Thank you, and a perfect response. A lot gets lost on this forum from the simple goal of ANY car; to get you from point A to point B, safely and reliably, and with dependability as to the overall performance of the car.

palmermd said:

http://www.phoenixraceway.com/About-Us/Track-Rentals.aspx

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I'll call them, but I bet it's not cheap, even if available.

mark1313 said:

Tony Williams my hat goes off to you for trying to organize this..

I would like to join in but Im not sure if I can because I work late at night and I live way on the west side of Phx (151ave Deervalley)

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Not trying; we're going to do it!!!

Confirm you've lost 3 bars? Could I take your car on Friday and return it to you Saturday? Can you find another way to and from work that day?

Volusiano said:

TonyWilliams said:

Each car to yield an end results in number of miles, that means that the end reference has to be LBW or VLBW or something like that, right?

I recommend all the way to turtle.

Click to expand...

While I understand the technical merit of going to turtle to eliminate any argument about how much is left, it's not practical for many reasons.

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1. Safety: you don't want to reach turtle on a freeway test.

Safety is huge. The plan would be to be getting off the freeway between VLB and Turtle, but obviously those will just be educated guesses. A chase truck is my first choice. Cars could leave in such a way that not every car quits at the same time. There just won't be much traffic on a Saturday morning, as early as I intend to do the test. The temperature should be about 75F and 99F when I'm LONG gone. Nobody has a safety risk at 75F-80F. Bring water.

2. Inconvenience: it now has not become a simple 2-hour test like advertised before.

Well, it will be a little inconvenient for me, so I guess I'm not very sympathetic to that! I recommend that anybody who would be too inconvenienced not to do it.

3. If we have a dozen cars turn-out which all go to turtle and require free towing all at the same time,

Hopefully, we can get access to a truck and car trailer. I will rent the darn thing from UHAUL, if that's what it takes to get the job done. In addition, we each have Nissan tow service.

4. This test also implies that not just the cars with capacity loss go to turtle.

I don't see any concrete path to identifying range over a set course without doing just that. Sorry, but the cars have to go to turtle. If somebody is not comfortable with that, we can get somebody else to drive the car, or just don't participate.

I, for one, would be hesitant to participate if I have to run my car to turtle and wait in the heat for a tow truck that may take a very long time to come because there are dozens of LEAFs with the same fate at the same time waiting for a tow truck as well.

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I hope we can find that middle ground that will offer the most participation, and maybe you guys can do that later (when there's 100+ cars to choose from). For this Sept 14 staging, and Sept 15 test, there are just some things that must be done to get the data from Scott's car and a control car. Everything above that is gravy.

Herm said:

Tony, my hat is always off to you..

Can the last few kWh be finished off by running the heater to turtle.. or does it have to be driven?

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A heater isn't range. >>>NO CLIMATE CONTROL AT ALL<<<<

The test is simply to verify the range with the LEAF's faulty instrument, according to a Nissan EVP. I think he's completely full of sh*t, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if we can drive a 4 bar loser the same distance as a new car. Or even close to the same.

I'm betting on about 30%+ loss of range.

I know somebody will suggest it, but I'm not interested in how much energy it took to fill the cars back up. There are so many variables there (unless every car was filled with the same charger, at the same rate, from the same SOC start, and the same temperature... maybe).

This is exciting. Please keep this thread updated when the actual event starts. I'm sure Nissan will be grateful too

TonyWilliams said:

We will use what we can get, and that might be any owner's new-ish car that can charge to 100% with 275 Gid or greater.

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I'm wondering if ANY LEAFs will store 275 GIDs next Saturday in Phoenix. You may find that you will need to go lower than that.

I think going to turtle safely is doable. If the end of the route is at the PADT quick charging station, then the cars can do loops in that research park until turtle. I think speed limit is only 25 mph on those roads and those are mainly office buildings. I don't anticipate much traffic on a Saturday morning.

dont forget to videotape the event, seeing is believing