Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

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LEAFer said:
@Chels: Get yourself one of the degraded LEAFs. Buy it, take over the lease, whatever. It must be made clear that you are NOT in Nissan's pocket and that Nissan made no contribution to your ownership of a LEAF. Now you have a strong position on the advisory board !

Well, I'm not sure what it says about me being in Nissan's pocket that the only EV in my garage is the RHD prototype MItsubishi iMiEV that I've been babysitting for a while... ;)

But I hear you...and think it's one of those things that can only be proven over time. And really, if I can be helpful in all of this, what people think of my motives along the way isn't my concern.

shrink said:
Whether he wants it or not, I think Tony Williams should receive strong consideration for the advisory board.

I totally agree.
 
TonyWilliams said:
JRP3 said:
Regarding future LEAF's, if pack degradation cannot be improved with a better battery then the solution might be to install a larger pack with a larger buffer. Software would then allow a larger percentage of the pack to be used as capacity drops, keeping useable mileage the same, or at least less severe. Or switch to a more durable chemistry.


You mean like Volt already does?!?!?!
Exactly. I'd hope an improved battery would avoid having to keep such a large buffer in reserve, but if not it could be a reasonable solution, as long as it does not drive the vehicle price higher.
 
downeykp said:
We went out on a limb and trusted Nissan and believed all of their BS. We paid a lot of money to try and help foster the real ev movement and this is the thanks we get.

Why are you angry?.. no battery issues in Washington state
 
I agree that what matters for a normal owner is that the car should be able to drive as far as it needs to but I am a bit puzzled by people who claim that they can "measure" that their battery has degraded by X %.

I'm an electrical engineer and I've been trying to determine this for my car for the past 1.5 year (since I own it). That said, I am nowhere near into is as people who have been logging data directly from the car's CAN bus. I've limited by experiments to what can be done with the car instrumentation. But I've been observing the car's behavior very carefully: when bars go away, how far I drive, what speed, at what temperature, if there is headwind or tailwind, etc... I drive the exact same route 5 days a week and after all this time the only thing I can say is that there are still large variations in my range / energy consumption which I just can't explain. Those variations are much larger than any capacity loss reported by some people. In such case, the statistical method is usually the way to go but every time I started to log data and try to average it out I discovered I was missing a factor which could have skewed my result...

I am not questioning that there is something bad happening with the cars in hot climates but I am wondering how some owners have been able to determine the capacity of their battery with such precision. I am really curious what method people who wrote they have seen 7 or 12% degradation have followed to get such result. Again, I am not questioning the degradation (I do believe my car has some to - almost 30K, it's about time for me to loose a bar too) but I am puzzled by the precision some have been able to report.

I believe the Nissan service manual describes a "static" method based on running all the systems at the same time and check how long it takes for the bars to go down. Personally, I would trust such method over any driving test to determine how much capacity a battery has. According to what I read about the Phoenix cars Nissan took back for investigation, this is what they have done. They did not test drive the cars. Has anybody done that test ?
 
TonyWilliams said:
rickbecker said:
shrink said:
Chelsea,

Whether he wants it or not, I think Tony Williams should receive strong consideration for the advisory board. His efforts thus far exhibit a passion above and beyond that of most for this effort to succeed - the range chart, owning a LEAF and leasing another, the BC2BC trip, the range test. He is dedicated to providing more practical knowledge about the car and wants to make the LEAF and all EV's better.

...

+1

If asked, I will seriously consider it. I would need to know the goals, limits, etc, and be reasonably assured that this isn't a PR stunt.

This whole charade looks like a publicity stunt to me. Nissan says everything is within normal parameters then decides they need to put together a panel. If everything is within normal parameters then why would they need a customer panel? The next thing you know the squeaky wheel will be silent through some agreement with Nissan ie financial incentives.

This is right out of the PR playbook.
 
ericsf said:
They did not test drive the cars. Has anybody done that test ?

12 of us drove cars on a little test last week.

Click here -->>> http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=225481#p225481" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and click here -->>> http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326#p228326" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, click here for a range chart -->>> http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293#p101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
JRP3 said:
Regarding future LEAF's, if pack degradation cannot be improved with a better battery then the solution might be to install a larger pack with a larger buffer. Software would then allow a larger percentage of the pack to be used as capacity drops, keeping useable mileage the same, or at least less severe. Or switch to a more durable chemistry.

Goshen has hinted at a second generation battery. Whether this is of better durability or just simply cheaper is yet to be revealed. A cheaper battery would allow for more buffer, better chemistry better durability. Time will tell. I read something about Nissan moving to a Hitachi battery. Is that confirmed, does anyone know anything about its performance and durability compared to the current batteries?
 
downeykp said:
This whole charade looks like a publicity stunt to me. Nissan says everything is within normal parameters then decides they need to put together a panel. If everything is within normal parameters then why would they need a customer panel?
Because even if everything is normal customers are still pissed off, so it does make sense to try and address their concerns. Bottom line is if customers are not happy with your product you have a problem.
 
Herm said:
downeykp said:
We went out on a limb and trusted Nissan and believed all of their BS. We paid a lot of money to try and help foster the real ev movement and this is the thanks we get.

Why are you angry?.. no battery issues in Washington state

You are correct I do not have battery issues at this time. But if this whole experiment goes south my investment will go south with it.
 
evchels said:
In the meantime, if anyone knows how to clone guys like Brendan and Paul... :)
I hope you don't mean Paul Scott...

Paul Scott July 6, 2012 at 2:40 pm · Reply
Responding to Dave’s comment… (I sell the LEAF for a Los Angeles Nissan dealer).
Nissan’s warrantee for the battery pack is 8 years/100,000 miles. The warrantee allows for up to 20% degradation in 5 years.

Comment extracted from:
http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2012/07/06/turning-over-a-new-leaf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
JRP3 said:
TonyWilliams said:
JRP3 said:
Regarding future LEAF's, if pack degradation cannot be improved with a better battery then the solution might be to install a larger pack with a larger buffer. Software would then allow a larger percentage of the pack to be used as capacity drops, keeping useable mileage the same, or at least less severe. Or switch to a more durable chemistry.


You mean like Volt already does?!?!?!
Exactly. I'd hope an improved battery would avoid having to keep such a large buffer in reserve, but if not it could be a reasonable solution, as long as it does not drive the vehicle price higher.


While the volt does keep a larger reserve buffer, the 2013s are actually using a bit more of that reserve (at least as a percentage) because GMs experience and data suggests they can. Leaving unused battery will always impact the price, but better a slightly higher price and meeting/exceeding customer expectations than a lower price and unhappy customers. People getting >50miles per chage, which is my average since April, are very happy. People getting below EPA would be angry. I exceeded EPA even in the dead of CO winters.

Also remember the volt needs to be a bit more conservative as many drivers take it to minimum SOC every day, so they are getting a full swing every day which is more agressive in terms of the Depth-of-discharge, than many leaf drivers that don't go below LBW, and few get to VLBW. . As battery degradation tends to accelerate with DOD and age (weaker batteries have more internal resistance and use more DOD to get the same range, which degrades them faster, which needs more charge.. ) and because GM warranty covers capacity loss, they needed to be conservative. GM could have met their orginal goal of 40miles, but opening up that window, but it could just as easily have gone badly. Luckily for you, press on the Leaf battery issues is being way more forgiving than it was on say on the Volt battery non-issue.
 
DrInnovation said:
Leaving unused battery will always impact the price, but better a slightly higher price and meeting/exceeding customer expectations than a lower price and unhappy customers.
A higher priced LEAF that only meets the expectations that the original LEAF promised probably would not succeed. My thought and hope is that with two years of pack manufacturing under their belt and the new US plant they might be able to deliver a larger pack without raising the vehicle cost. In fact I'd say it's crucial that they do so.
 
This is my first post in the forum, so let me introduce myself. I’m Jeff Kuhlman, Head of Global Communications for Nissan Motor Co. I enter the forum a bit intimidated. I used to be quite involved in EV and advanced technology matters many years ago when I headed Communications for GM’s Energy and Environmental issues and Advanced Technology activities. Then I had the great fortune to work with some great people in the business, people who were my co-workers and my mentors – Bob Purcell, Denny Minano, Jon Beresa, Byron McCormick, Erhard Schubert, and Chelsea Sexton among the many.

If you know those names and their careers at GM, then you know that it was many years ago that I was involved with EVs. Since then I mostly have been involved with luxury brands, including Cadillac, Saab and Audi. Late last year, I joined Nissan in my current position. I work and reside in Yokohama, Japan.

As I read through your posts, it’s clear that we have much work to do on the communications front. And as I read your posts, I realize that you’re asking for more than that. What I can do is serve as one of the bridges to Nissan. Andy Palmer, Executive Vice President of Nissan, asked me to personally lead the global EV communications effort. That direction is clear, no delegation.

Fortunately, there is a good team that I get to work with, some you know, some you may not know. Many of you on the west coast have met or are familiar with Tim Gallagher, he’s on the team. Katherine Zachary is also on the team. She is located in Nashville, and if you haven’t met her, you’ve probably read her quotes. Dave Reuter, head of communications for the Americas (everything from Canada south through South America) is also on the team. We also have members from Europe, and we have two folks from Japan who are in Communications and are close to the battery team and the vehicle team.

I believe that my responsibility, and that of this team, is to promote, defend and engage. First, we have been too silent on what Nissan is working on, what we think the future looks like, and what innovations are coming. Second, we also have not defended Nissan or the LEAF as well as we could have when others – competitors, the anti-EV groups, and the media – lobbed verbal attacks at our company, our product and our motivations. Finally, we have not talked to you as frequently and as transparently as was needed.

On the last issue, there has been a debate in our profession about whether or not to participate in enthusiast forums, such as mynissanleaf.com. Too often such efforts, while noble, came off as spin. So, companies typically monitor the forums and then answer issues through their owned social platforms, such as YouTube, Facebook and Twitter. We have all of that, but we’re willing to talk here if invited. After reading through the responses to yesterday’s letter I realize that the discussions will often be tough, but that’s part of being the face of any company or brand. So, tell me when we’re falling short of the three areas that I’ve outlined above. My commitment to you is to monitor frequently, comment often and bring Nissan people – executives, engineers, designer, technologists – to this forum.

To start, on Thursday we will have a chance to sit down and talk with Andy Palmer while at the Paris Motor Show. Andy has agreed to take questions and to answer them in a video that we will post no later than Friday. We will begin to solicit questions via our Facebook page. I invite you to send your questions.

From now on I’ll keep my posts shorter, but I thought it important to let you know a little about me and what I’m going to be working on as it concerns the Nissan LEAF. Thanks for “listening”.
 
Welcome Jeff. I'm sure you'll receive a lot of questions and messages. By the way, Nissan were very involved on this board very early on. But over time backed away.
 
Chelsea, thank you for agreeing to lead Nissan's new EV technical advisory board! I feel this is a step in the right direction. Kudos to Nissan for taking this step.

I agree that Tony is an excellent choice for this board.

I recommend that you include at least one LEAF customer from Phoenix who has experienced both battery degradation and Nissan's response to date. In fact, I nominate Azdre for a position on your board! :cool:

You might also wish to include a LEAF customer on your board who also owns a Chevy Volt. Those customers can give you a more complete and impartial view of how each company communicates versus the other. There is a thread around here for owners of both cars if you wish to find out who they are.

I will also say there appears to be a rift between LEAF owners and Nissan dealership service departments as evidenced by a self-proclaimed Nissan service manager coming on here and complaining about LEAF customers. I think there may be several factors involved in this issue, but Nissan should keep an eye on it, IMO.

Finally, I will second Azdre's comment about the real issue being range and not kWh. It is extremely disingenuous for Nissan to proclaim that the battery capacity will be at 80% for the average LEAF after 5 years if internal electrical resistance simultaneously increases 400% (made up number) and range to automated nagging to plug in the car drops by 50%.
 
Hawk0630 said:
This is my first post in the forum, so let me introduce myself. I’m Jeff Kuhlman, Head of Global Communications for Nissan Motor Co.
GREAT to see you hear, Jeff. WELCOME! I really look forward to future "conversations" and hope they will prove informative and helpful for all LEAF owners and the EV movement in general. Thank you for joining us on National Plug-In Day!
 
Hawk0630 said:
This is my first post in the forum, so let me introduce myself. I’m Jeff Kuhlman, Head of Global Communications for Nissan Motor Co. I enter the forum a bit intimidated.

<snip>

From now on I’ll keep my posts shorter, but I thought it important to let you know a little about me and what I’m going to be working on as it concerns the Nissan LEAF. Thanks for “listening”.

Trust me, Mr. Kuhlman, you are welcomed here with open arms. This kind of involvement is something I've been pleading to Messrs Reuter and Perry for much of last year. And I'm so, so glad to see it come to pass...I think it's a very positive step. Looking forward to a more open dialog with Nissan from here on in!
 
forgive if this is repetitive, as I didnt have time to read all 8 pages.

given what Nissan said in its letter and warranty material -- guaranteed loss of capacity over time -- would they please tell us what the replacement cost of the battery is?
some of us would want to keep the car because of its wonderful characteristics, but being limited to 80% of 75 miles in a daily commute -- largely freeway and some streets -- may mean we cannot use it in a couple of years for its primary purpose.
 
Welcome, Jeff! Thank you for reaching out to our community of your customers and prospects! This effort is greatly appreciated!
Hawk0630 said:
We will begin to solicit questions via our Facebook page. I invite you to send your questions.
So are you only interested in receiving questions from members of Facebook, or is everyone welcome to submit questions?
 
ockam said:
I certainly do hope the batteries slow down their loss. I just noticed I lost my first bar this weekend after 16 months and 16,000 miles of use in socal.

Added to the Wiki. Ockam, if you could check the mfg date on the body frame inside the driver's side door, we can add that to the data, and if you report this as a case to Nissan, please give us your Case # and the date you reported it. Thanks! :)
 
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