Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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For those in hot climate areas where Nissan's willing to buy back their cars, it'd be interesting to see what people are to replace their Leaf. Perhaps they should post in the "Defectors" thread (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9903" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)?

I heard one who turned theirs in got some VW TDI. FWIW, I wouldn't buy a VW nor one of their TDIs (due to VW's generally spotty reliability and more recent HPFP problems). And "clean diesels" are pretty dirty in terms of EPA pollution score vs. PZEV certified cars. Diesels also produce more CO2 per unit of fuel burned than gasoline (http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=307&t=11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

To me, good candidates might be a Prius, Camry Hybrid, Fusion Hybrid ('13 FFH gets an amazing for its size and power 47/47/47 mpg EPA rating) or PHEVs/EVs w/active thermal management (e.g. Volt, FFE (?), Tesla Model S (long wait for that), etc.)

That said, if one were to buy say a Prius in a hot climate, I wouldn't be surprised if one needs a replacement HV battery not long after the 8 year/100K mile HV battery warranty expires as we on Priuschat have tended to see a correlation between HV battery failure and high temps and/or hilly commutes. CA and CARB states get a 10 year/150K mile HV battery warranty.
 
It would have been better if a technical fix to the car were offered to address the issues but I guess it's not available at this time, or its not cost effective, so I guess the buy back is the next best thing. Obviously Nissan needs to build a better car in the near future or the program will be in serious trouble.
 
JRP3 said:
It would have been better if a technical fix to the car were offered to address the issues but I guess it's not available at this time, or its not cost effective, so I guess the buy back is the next best thing. Obviously Nissan needs to build a better car in the near future or the program will be in serious trouble.

+1

I brought my car to the dealer today, as I lost a capacity bar and the Leaf hotline said to bring it in. The Leaf hotline guy assigned to my case number said have the dealer tech call him while he was with my car. He did, and he asked the hotline guy "Do you have an answer for the loss of a capacity bar at 6,881 miles?" The hotline guy said no, and the dealer tech, (I like this guy), said "While the hell did you waste his time and tell him to come in?" You have to just shake your head.
 
TickTock said:
Here's my receation of the graph I think is most pertinent to all owners/buyers to decide individual course of action.



To TickTock, Thanks for your insight. I am sure your meeting with Nissan and report/graph will impact this community for a long time to come. Unfortunately, we are interested in the best practical answer and Nissan is interested in the best political answer. I get it but all of this is time from our lives that we'll never get back.

Nissan - your information is frustrating.


If Nissan had shown the above chart to me the day I was buying my LEAF I would have told them NO THANKS! If they had told me I could only drive 20 miles a day round trip or I'd kill my battery pack early, I would have told them HELL NO, are you crazy?!

It's hard to respect Nissan's information (different daily commute lengths for different cities) as anything other than fodder to fit in a chart to get the result they want.
 
Wow I just turned on Ch. 5 news congrats to all of you ...What a great victory ...So does everyone need to go the lemon law rout to get Nissan to buy the car back ?
 
Yes, just saw in on channel 5 KPHO-Phoenix at 10:00pm news.

Very Interesting....reporter Heather Moore mentioned that Nissan Executive stated Nissan may 'pull' LEAFS from Arizona valley dealerships.

azdre said:
Nissan is also going to buy our car back at standard lemon law repurchase terms. We were told of this intent (verbally only) a few days before the range test (9/11), and debated whether to say anything. We really couldn't jeopardize our chance at the buyback so we decided to keep quiet. We were very skeptical at whether they would actually follow through and were given no details at that time.

We followed the dispute resolution process as outlined in the warranty manual... to the tee. So if someone wants to know how we did it, tell them to RTFM! :)

She gets returned on Tuesday at 9am. This will put this to an end for us, but we're still here to help anyone else get the resolution they desire. If anyone has an idea of an offset for all of the bad mojo I've given to EVs, let me know. I want them to be mainstreamed, but I'm not willing to throw $33,000 out the window for it to happen.

We'll have an update on KPHO (probably tonight @10pm). http://www.kpho.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
DesertDenizen said:
I brought my car to the dealer today, as I lost a capacity bar and the Leaf hotline said to bring it in. The Leaf hotline guy assigned to my case number said have the dealer tech call him while he was with my car. He did, and he asked the hotline guy "Do you have an answer for the loss of a capacity bar at 6,881 miles?" The hotline guy said no, and the dealer tech, (I like this guy), said "While the hell did you waste his time and tell him to come in?" You have to just shake your head.
Dennis, I thought that they will have resolution for you when you get to dealership, what a waste of your time.
 
The 4th KPHO CBS5 news story has been posted...

http://www.kpho.com/video?clipId=7772224&autostart=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
TickTock said:
Here's my receation of the graph I think is most pertinent to all owners/buyers to decide individual course of action.
Great data. THIS is the type of data Nissan should be releasing to customers and potential customers to give them the information they need to make an informed decision on whether or not the car will work for them.

Some interesting data about Boston vs Phoenix weather:

Boston average max temp barely gets over 80F in July. Year round, Phoenix's max temp is over 20F hotter than Boston - min temps are around 15F hotter. weather.com estimates that Phoenix is about 22F hotter on average - thats around 15C hotter which indicates that a Phoenix battery should age well over twice as fast under the same usage patterns thanks toe Arrhenious Equation. This assumption appears to match up well with the chart given that the Boston plot is run with more miles than the Phoenix plot. Comparing Boston to Seattle - Seattle has even lower max summer temps - especially min summer temps. I'd guess that Seattle will beat out Boston in terms of calendar life, but it probably wouldn't be significant unless you park your car outside at night in Seattle.
 
opossum said:
The 4th KPHO CBS5 news story has been posted...

http://www.kpho.com/video?clipId=7772224&autostart=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow what a mess. I don't think they should sell the v1 leaf in Phoenix. Too damn hot and the Leaf can't stand the heat. Until they offer a hot weather package at least. I wouldn't buy one in a hot climate knowing what we know now.

Mine still works great and seems to have about 90% the original range after 20k miles but I'm in a moderate climate. I can go 75 miles when I hyper mile but it is not fun to go 55 on the freeway to do that. Nissan needs to offer at least 115 miles of EPA range so after a few years we could still go 100 miles. I still can't believe Nissan didn't offer a bigger battery and battery cooling. 2 big mistakes followed by another big mistake of not admitting they made any mistakes.

I really want Nissan to succeed and they should be given credit for launching a practical EV when no other carmakers would. However, we know first generation innovative products have issues. We should have all known that was a potential going in. If there are problems fix them and move on. Don't pretend there is not an issue, that is just shooting yourself in the foot as far as credibility goes.
 
Hopefully Nissan will do the right thing instead of letting this issue drag on by offering the replacement battery or find an alternative innovative solution to take care of the early adopters. Prolonged denial will only increase the stakes for taking a hit on their 5Billion(claimed - no ref) investment commitment to making electric cars.
 
EVDrive said:
Mine still works great and seems to have about 90% the original range after 20k miles but I'm in a moderate climate. I can go 75 miles when I hyper mile but it is not fun to go 55 on the freeway to do that. Nissan needs to offer at least 115 miles of EPA range so after a few years we could still go 100 miles. I still can't believe Nissan didn't offer a bigger battery and battery cooling. 2 big mistakes followed by another big mistake of not admitting they made any mistakes.

Bigger or smaller battery, and no battery cooling are not mistakes. Battery size costs money. Battery cooling costs money, energy and isn't needed most places. How the car was promoted and sold was a mistake, and once it was clear that there was a problem it was handled very badly. Range should have been understated at 70% of EPA range, not overstated. If you need 100 freeway miles often, you should be buying a car with EPA range greater than 180 miles when new. Plan on EOF at 70% of original, and do not plan on using more than 80% of the capacity more than occasionally.
 
WetEV said:
Bigger or smaller battery, and no battery cooling are not mistakes. Battery size costs money. Battery cooling costs money, energy and isn't needed most places. How the car was promoted and sold was a mistake, and once it was clear that there was a problem it was handled very badly. Range should have been understated at 70% of EPA range, not overstated. If you need 100 freeway miles often, you should be buying a car with EPA range greater than 180 miles when new. Plan on EOF at 70% of original, and do not plan on using more than 80% of the capacity more than occasionally.
This is key, Nissan, and all OEM's, need to clearly state the range at the low end of the scale, not the high end. However, part of the issue is that for typical US driving habits and expectations a new LEAF really does not provide enough range when capacity loss is figured in. A larger pack would mitigate this somewhat, going from a 120 mile range to a 100 mile range after a few years would be much less of a hardship for most people.
 
WetEV said:
Bigger or smaller battery, and no battery cooling are not mistakes. Battery size costs money. Battery cooling costs money, energy and isn't needed most places. How the car was promoted and sold was a mistake, and once it was clear that there was a problem it was handled very badly.
+1 Well said!
 
Saw TickTock's recreated chart and probablity that Leaf will get pulled from AZ and this came to mind...

Her hardest hue to hold.

Her early leaf's a flower;

But only so an hour.

Then leaf subsides to leaf,

So Eden sank to grief,

So dawn goes down to day

Nothing gold can stay.
 
RegGuheert said:
WetEV said:
Bigger or smaller battery, and no battery cooling are not mistakes. Battery size costs money. Battery cooling costs money, energy and isn't needed most places. How the car was promoted and sold was a mistake, and once it was clear that there was a problem it was handled very badly.
+1 Well said!
+2. Sums it up nicely.
 
TickTock said:
RegGuheert said:
WetEV said:
Bigger or smaller battery, and no battery cooling are not mistakes. Battery size costs money. Battery cooling costs money, energy and isn't needed most places. How the car was promoted and sold was a mistake, and once it was clear that there was a problem it was handled very badly.
+1 Well said!
+2. Sums it up nicely.
+3. Nothing wrong with the Leaf in its current incarnation, it just isn't an all-weather car.
 
Stoaty said:
+3. Nothing wrong with the Leaf in its current incarnation, it just isn't an all-weather car.
I wouldn't say 'nothing is wrong' just yet. Ask me what I think in a year. My LEAF is in an "ideal" normal environment (S.F. Bay Area) and the range is down about 10% with a low 10,400 miles in 16 months. This is higher than I expected, and I pretty much baby the battery. The loss has to slow down, or I'll consider the LEAF a "cold (but not freezing) weather only car".
 
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