A peek at the Leaf's Charger
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grommet
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I posted a picture of it in the SF BayLEAFs group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/BayLeafs/permalink/417230061667994/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ebill3
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Can you post it here for us non-Facebook folks?grommet said:
surfingslovak
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ebill3 said:
mwalsh said:grommet said:Car Charging Inc, owner of many parking garage EVSE sites, charges 49 cents per kWh when allowed. Do you feel better now?
Yes, much better to be charged by the kWh!
While it is much better to be charged by the kWh I feel the 49 cents per kWh high when the cost here is less than 10 cents per kWh. I feel a very fare way to charge is: The same rate that ICE cars cost to park, plus the current rate for kWh charged by the electric company. The parking lot is getting their profit for the time the car was parked just like all the other ICE's.
If the lot is free, then 1.5 x the cost per kWh.
Phil, This is important to me as it may be the deciding point between keeping my 2012 or trading in for a newer one once 6.6kw charges are ether standard or optional. This charger mod of yours, will you be offering that to us like the LeafSCAN and fan mod?Ingineer said:
edatoakrun
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Have you any estimates of how much battery heating occurs at the ~3.3 charge rate?
TimeHorse
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N952JL said:
Phil has already said while he'll continue to provide EVSEUpgrade service this job would be far too much for him to handle and even then think about logistics. You can ship an EVSE to California but hardly an entire LEAF. And Phil did say he's looking at fleet sales and those would pay off better than one here one there type jobs and Phil does need to make a living so respect.
What I would say though between Phil's NDA with CHAdeMO and other many LEAF-based projects it'd be nice if he or someone else could write up some step-by-step instructions that one could take to someone local with the know-how of getting something like that done. My guess is the main issue is running new wire. I guess since it's 2 chargers like the Tesla Model S it may be he used 2 sets of lines since threading a second set next to the first may be easier than threading a new line. Personally, I'd like to know the how to not just for the potential to do the upgrade myself but to see if an even bigger charger can be fit with a wire run through the chassis. The free Blink may be nice but imagine charging my LEAF at 19kW on my ClipperCreek CS-100. No, wouldn't go that far but nice to see what it would take to do so. I think when you get that big your main concern is the size of the caps and stuff making the whole box too big to fit not to mention such a big charger being molto caro.
Ingineer
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We are looking at offering the 6.7kW upgrade as a kit. Installation is simple, and anyone competent with mechanical assembly can install it with a few hand tools in under an hour. It does not require running wires in difficult places, everything is right there under the hood, nothing under the car or in the back.N952JL said:
It's also designed such that in the unlikely event something goes wrong with it, that the original charging system is unaffected. Reliability was my top concern after safety. Unfortunately because I am using the best parts available to meet these goals, it's not cheap.
There is also a liability issue, so anyone purchasing such a kit will have to sign their life away. 400 volts will kill you dead! (And hurt the while time you are dying!)
The upgrade is designed to be very reliable and safe, and to respect all limits and safeties in the Leaf's existing design, but it's still a modification. Nissan could give you a raft of flak if you try to make a warranty claim even though from a technical and engineering standpoint they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Of course it can be easily removed without much effort. Sadly, With the way Nissan is treating people now, it doesn't appear that you'd get any support from them in any event.
My mission is to support Electric Mobility any way I can. I'll keep doing so as long as I'm able, and as time permits I'll keep on developing new things for our cars.
Right now though, my focus is getting LEAFSCAN™ in everyone's hands ASAP. Until it's on it's way, other projects are in a holding pattern. Also, the 6.7kW upgrade depends on LEAFSCAN™ in order to adjust the output, so you'd have less utility without it.
-Phil
FairwoodRed
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Phil,
Thanks for the update! This is more info than I expected, and sooner too. I can't wait to see more details when you are ready to release them.
Thanks for the update! This is more info than I expected, and sooner too. I can't wait to see more details when you are ready to release them.
Ingineer
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You are confusing Amps for total power. Amps times Volts = Watts* (real power), so if the charger (as my add-on does) puts out 3.4kW at 380 volts (average) that's about 9 amps into the battery, and around 15 amps from 240v AC (add some for conversion loss).N952JL said:
Keep in mind a typical average power draw from the Leaf's pack while driving is at least 10kW, so if charging at 6.7kW is bad, then driving your Leaf is really bad! I don't notice any additional temp delta (rise) from using the 6.7kW rate over the original, it's very slight.
(* Actually VA, Watts would be correctly calculating by factoring in Power factor losses, but since it's close to unity it doesn't matter much. That is another discussion though.)
-Phil
Ingineer
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With either 3.3 or 6.7kW, I don't usually see over about 5 degrees temp rise, but there are a lot of factors. Simply driving the Leaf can easily add 10 degrees.edatoakrun said:
-Phil
TimeHorse
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Ingineer said:
Personally at this point I'm pro-LEAFSCAN even if it wasn't required for 6.6kW. But this strikes me interesting. I know you got an NDA for CHAdeMO (and I haven't seen much traffic in the reverse-engineering CHAdeMO thread) so I take it what you did was to tap the J1772 port as it comes in, feed half the load to the top-charger and that top-charger then outputs DC onto the CHAdeMO/L3 bus? If so, I'd assume then that this mod is SL only, not SV. Cool if that's how you did it and as the hood has some space to spare (we're looking at adding one of those retractable NEMA-5 plugs to under the hood between the CHAdeMO and J1772 so that you don't have to get out your EVSE all the time: just stretch the cord out and plug in at any of 12,000,000 NEMA-5 outlets. Then just yank the cord to have it auto-retract. The big issue is the best we could find was 14 Gauge cord (IIRC) for the auto-retracting extension cords so you'd have to unwind the whole thing to avoid it overheating but I'm sure some would find even that more useful than dragging out their EVSE Upgrade.
Either way, though, if the solution is as I suggest then adding a 6.7kW charger up top to supplement the 3.7kW down below would also be possible though a 16.7kW charger up top may be right out due to size, weight and expense. But theoretically if you could fit it, didn't mind the extra weight and had an infinite budget sounds like you could do it.
Ingineer
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My system will work on an SV quite fine, it doesn't depend on having the CHAdeMO port. It's also definitely possible to go beyond 6.7kW, but it would require a J1772 Inlet upgrade, and besides, there are very few places you could use such an arrangement at full power, so it may be a large outlay of $ for little return. A 10kW upgrade would likely cost $8k+, so in my opinion you'd probably be better off with an external QC solution. (Provided you have an SL)TimeHorse said:Personally at this point I'm pro-LEAFSCAN even if it wasn't required for 6.6kW. But this strikes me interesting. I know you got an NDA for CHAdeMO (and I haven't seen much traffic in the reverse-engineering CHAdeMO thread) so I take it what you did was to tap the J1772 port as it comes in, feed half the load to the top-charger and that top-charger then outputs DC onto the CHAdeMO/L3 bus? If so, I'd assume then that this mod is SL only, not SV. Cool if that's how you did it and as the hood has some space to spare (we're looking at adding one of those retractable NEMA-5 plugs to under the hood between the CHAdeMO and J1772 so that you don't have to get out your EVSE all the time: just stretch the cord out and plug in at any of 12,000,000 NEMA-5 outlets. Then just yank the cord to have it auto-retract. The big issue is the best we could find was 14 Gauge cord (IIRC) for the auto-retracting extension cords so you'd have to unwind the whole thing to avoid it overheating but I'm sure some would find even that more useful than dragging out their EVSE Upgrade.
Either way, though, if the solution is as I suggest then adding a 6.7kW charger up top to supplement the 3.7kW down below would also be possible though a 16.7kW charger up top may be right out due to size, weight and expense. But theoretically if you could fit it, didn't mind the extra weight and had an infinite budget sounds like you could do it.
The max that would fit without major work would be 10kW. I doubt you could do much over that, and besides, you are looking at 80 amps in. (10kW needs about 50 amps)
6.7kW is a good compromise, as it's still pretty fast for most uses and it only needs a 32A EVSE.
-Phil
TimeHorse
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Ingineer said:
And pretty much no public EVSE can push out more than 6.7kW, not Coulomb, Blink, Wattstation, EvrGreen 160 or 320, OpConnect or Sema as far as I know. Only the ClipperCreek CS-100, adapted from the original Tesla Roadster box, can do the trick. Fortunately I have one. Yes, I have an SL but CHAdeMO in Washington, D.C. consists of about 4 Mitsubishi Motors dealerships with the unit in the showroom and only granting access to iMiEVs. Yes, it's that bad!
Ingineer said:
Would there be a way to charge only from your new charger, and temporarily disable the existing on-board?
I asked because:
#1: You say yours is more efficient, so I would prefer to use it when using the 16A EVSEupgrade box.
#2: My on board charger is one of the early/noisy ones that bothers/buzzes some 240V equipment (like my solar inverter), so it would be nice to use a cleaner charger.
electronit
Member
TimeHorse said:
In Europe that's different, with 3-phase (380V) public charging points appearing (using a Type 2 / "Mennekes" socket). We'd need 2 extra of these Brusa NLG5 chargers and a Type2 socket on the car to profit from that, for a total of 11kW at 16A
Ingineer; no plans for a European kit by any chance ? ;-)(Alternatively, you could install a Brusa NLG6 directly as a replacement of the onboard charger ;-), but that's definitely out-of-budget for now )
TimeHorse
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electronit said:TimeHorse said:
In Europe that's different, with 3-phase (380V) public charging points appearing (using a Type 2 / "Mennekes" socket). We'd need 2 extra of these Brusa NLG5 chargers and a Type2 socket on the car to profit from that, for a total of 11kW at 16A
(Alternatively, you could install a Brusa NLG6 directly as a replacement of the onboard charger ;-), but that's definitely out-of-budget for now )
Well yes, I did mean in the US. In the US it's rare that anyone has 3-phase, even businesses. Most US businesses looking at CHAdeMO or generic DC Fast Charging (read Tesla or SAE) are facing the vexing issue that not only does that mean the box, not only does that mean running the line, not only does that mean digging up pavement, not only does that mean open slots in your circuit panel it generally means a Transformer upgrade from the power company! As most know, 2-phase is very common which is why upgrading to 240VAC is so ubiquitous for things like Dryers and RVs and US-sold EVSEs. Just tap two hots on a circuit box at alternate phases and bamn, you've got NEMA 14, NEMA 6, NEMA 10, or whatever US 240VAC standard. And as far as residential usage, because of the logistics even in a house like mine with 400A service to the meter (200A + 125A box currently via dual meter EV ToU plan in use) that's still only 2-phase power and there's no way that's ever gonna be 3-phase and thus no way I'm ever gonna have a home DC Fast Charger.
Oh, would that we did have ubiquitous 3-phase. But wasn't someone saying they hated all the non-charger related talk? Heavens forbid we don't go back there and get flamed again and what I'm curious about is how Ingineer did it: how do you push another 3.3kW into the battery pack from the front of the car? Use the existing drive lines via the regenerative breaking? Is that why the cautionary about not going over 10kW because that's the max those lines take in the forward (non-regenerative) direction? If so, that's bloody clever! Bravo!
