Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

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QueenBee said:
Andy expressed the expectation from Nissan that the majority of customers would lease leaving Nissan carrying the burden of the battery technology durability. I've read numbers as high as 70% of customers buying vs leasing.

Response to below: I doubt the law requires consent each time to send personal data to Nissan. One consent per person should be enough. Since the car has no way of knowing who the driver is, and the data is personal to the driver, not the car, then the car has to ask for consent each time to ensure compliance with the law. The LEAF most likely sends much more information to Nissan than location, and Nissan stores the information, perhaps permanently, and uses it for lots of its own purposes.

His logic is flawed though since the length of the lease does not cover the life of the vehicle so while Nissan takes the initial burden once the lease is over either the original owner who buys the car or the next owner take on the rest of the risk. For Nissan to actually take on the risk of battery capacity they need to offer a real capacity warranty.

I'm not at all convinced that there is a US privacy law that prohibits the LEAF from sending whatever data it sends back without that warning everytime. I would like this issue to be pressed resulting in an actual response that provides a legal analysis of the issue. If lo-jack, my cell phone, and OnStar can all send GPS coordinates without me consenting every time I turn them on then either they are leaving themselves open to liability or Nissan's assessment is wrong. I would like further in depth clarification on this.

I think Nissan needs to seriously consider providing the raw number for SOC and capacity. It would go a long way in providing accurate feedback to owners concerned about their packs. If there is a reason for not having this then make the case to us. After seeing that my battery loss is less than a couple to a few percent after a year and 10,000 miles I am very pleased. Sure this might be too variable to display right on the dash but forcing consumers to build custom devices to read CANBus messes for this information is not the solution.

I would like to see Nissan respond properly to saintyohann's issue and provide us and them an explanation for how the issue got this far.

I think the comments from Jeff and this video are an amazing first set of steps in fixing our relationship but I don't expect Chelsea to be content with the answers that Andy provided. We are going to need a lot more technical information and concrete answers. I have very high expectations of Nissan and am optimistic that Nissan can start meeting them.
 
hill said:
I won't get started on how Nissan HORRIBLY botched quick charging infrastructure by NOT installing. Q.C's at dealerships ... ESPECIALLY in Nissan's largest US market - Southern California.

It is a bad idea, as you end up with chargers that are open 9-6 on weekdays only, maybe some hours in the morning. QC is needed 24/7
 
September said:
hill said:
I won't get started on how Nissan HORRIBLY botched quick charging infrastructure by NOT installing. Q.C's at dealerships ... ESPECIALLY in Nissan's largest US market - Southern California.

It is a bad idea, as you end up with chargers that are open 9-6 on weekdays only, maybe some hours in the morning. QC is needed 24/7
Car dealers in the US (at least where I've lived) are open much later than 6 pm and are ALWAYS open 7 days/week. Much of their traffic is on weekends. But, I have heard of some states where car dealers are closed on Sunday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law#Examples_of_blue_laws_in_the_United_States_today_by_state" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

If the QC was located at the edge of the property (not blocked by gates or cars intentionally setup as blockers), people could still come to use it when the dealer was closed.
 
Nubo said:
QueenBee said:
...I'm not at all convinced that there is a US privacy law that prohibits the LEAF from sending whatever data it sends back without that warning everytime. ...

And even it there is, I'd seriously doubt that the law would prohibit giving the owner the option to semi-permanently opt-out via "settings". So if Nissan hate it as much as we do, there would seem to be a clear path.

I'm not sure there is a privacy law either, but I do remember Andy saying (paraphrasing here) that "we live in a litigious society". They probably feared lawsuits in the US because that's what we do. Guess what? They got a few lawsuits anyway, but not for what they feared they might. It's quite conceivable for a lawyer or the press to twist the benign sending of vehicle data for product monitoring/improvement into Nissan are spying on your every move through the gps/nav system.
 
September said:
hill said:
I won't get started on how Nissan HORRIBLY botched quick charging infrastructure by NOT installing. Q.C's at dealerships ... ESPECIALLY in Nissan's largest US market - Southern California.

It is a bad idea, as you end up with chargers that are open 9-6 on weekdays only, maybe some hours in the morning. QC is needed 24/7

i worked at two different car dealerships this year. one was open 9-8 the other open 8-8. one was secured at night, the other was not so it would have charging 24/7.

there would have to be some adjustment as to where the charger is located. the Nissan dealership in town secures their lot which is kinda stupid because they pay for a night security team (every tenant at the Olympia Auto Mall does) and yes there is an average of 1-2 cars a year stolen from the complex but still...

now dealers that dont lock up (about 70%) have the advantage of night dropoffs for service, night pickups (which helped me when i dropped my Prius on trip out of town IN THE LEAF!!) and did not get home until near midnight. i paid my service bill by credit card over the phone before service dept closed at 6 PM (which is where i think you got your service hours since THEY are very limited) and was able to get car without issue since i had spare key with me.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
hill said:
I won't get started on how Nissan HORRIBLY botched quick charging infrastructure by NOT installing. Q.C's at dealerships ... ESPECIALLY in Nissan's largest US market - Southern California.

It is a bad idea, as you end up with chargers that are open 9-6 on weekdays only, maybe some hours in the morning. QC is needed 24/7

I agree with Hill. Nissan missed a golden opportunity and could have announced a national QC network 18 months before Tesla. Now Tesla has that claim to fame and the publicity around it.

All the dealerships in the Nashville area I have visited have L2 charging posts that are accessible 24/7. This could so easily have been L3 charging posts.
 
JPWhite said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
hill said:
I won't get started on how Nissan HORRIBLY botched quick charging infrastructure by NOT installing. Q.C's at dealerships ... ESPECIALLY in Nissan's largest US market - Southern California.

It is a bad idea, as you end up with chargers that are open 9-6 on weekdays only, maybe some hours in the morning. QC is needed 24/7

I agree with Hill. Nissan missed a golden opportunity and could have announced a national QC network 18 months before Tesla. Now Tesla has that claim to fame and the publicity around it.

All the dealerships in the Nashville area I have visited have L2 charging posts that are accessible 24/7. This could so easily have been L3 charging posts.

although i dont agree with the time line maybe its not too late? already posted this "somewhere" but dont see on this thread

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2012/10/decrepit-battery-pack-destinations.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
surfingslovak said:
JRP3 said:
I don't like the idea of hiding data as a solution to anything but she does make the point that other EV's don't display pack capacity directly.
The Volt does, it shows the usable kWh figure on each charge in plain sight on the dash, and from what I've gathered many owners track it. That said, I think a few of us might agree that the instrumentation in the Leaf could be better.

The Volt's battery has as 40% reserve buffer that is never used, to extend battery life.. for all we know there may be Volts in Phoenix that have already lost some of that, yet the "usable kWh" display remains the same. My guess is that it will be a few years until that buffer is gone.
 
Herm said:
The Volt's battery has as 40% reserve buffer that is never used, to extend battery life.. for all we know there may be Volts in Phoenix that have already lost some of that, yet the "usable kWh" display remains the same. My guess is that it will be a few years until that buffer is gone.
Good to see you post again, Herm! When did you move to Mali? :cool:

PY08Kb
1
 
Herm said:
The Volt's battery has as 40% reserve buffer that is never used, to extend battery life.. for all we know there may be Volts in Phoenix that have already lost some of that, yet the "usable kWh" display remains the same. My guess is that it will be a few years until that buffer is gone.
The Volt's SOC range is generally from 22% to 87% so 65% used. It can dip into the teens. (LEAF has 21kWh usage out of 24kWh so ~87.5%)

There has never been any proof or anything from GM that they ARE using any of that 35% as the battery degrades. If you have seen that then please provide the links!

I have seen one non-GM presentation from a battery company owner that indicated some of the 35% is used for "thermal management power requirements".

DrI's watching of the SOC via the PID does not show any degradation.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=232799#p232799" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dave an early Phoenix Volt owner watches his input to the the car and has not seen it changed. He has a solar system so watches kWs carefully.

From Rusty and DashDAQ
Here's how it maps between the gauge display and the actual battery SOC (or at least I think the VICM term is SOC).
Code:
Battery Gauge  Gauge %     Battery %
10 bars        91%-100%    81.0%-86.5%
9 bars         81%-90%     74.4%-81.0%
8 bars         71%-80%     68.0%-74.4%
7 bars         61%-70%     61.5%-68.0%
6 bars         51%-60%     55.3%-61.5%
5 bars         41%-50%     48.7%-55.2%
4 bars         31%-40%     42.1%-48.7%
3 bars         21%-30%     35.6%-42.1%
2 bars         11%-20%     29.3%-35.5%
1 bar           1%-10%     22.7%-29.3%
0 bars          0%-1%      20.0%-22.7%
The ICE comes on around 20% SOC, and the CS SOC is around 22%. So the ICE runs a bit to bring the SOC back up from 20%ish to 22%ish. This somewhat confirms some of what we've heard about the battery and battery SOC.
 
scottf200 said:
There has never been any proof or anything from GM that they ARE using any of that 35% as the battery degrades. If you have seen that then please provide the links!

It was an old article by a GM exec back before the Volt was released.. that they would use the buffer to meet the 40 mile range spec as the battery aged. I have no idea if any Phoenix Volts have experienced degradation.. How could you tell by monitoring the kWh used during charging?.. the battery (unlike the Leaf) is never fully cycled.
 
Herm said:
scottf200 said:
There has never been any proof or anything from GM that they ARE using any of that 35% as the battery degrades. If you have seen that then please provide the links!
It was an old article by a GM exec back before the Volt was released.. that they would use the buffer to meet the 40 mile range spec as the battery aged.
I don't think there has been any recent GM comments/presentations/etc and we are on the 3rd model year. 2013's went from 16 to 16.5kWh via chemistry tweaks and they use that 0.5 for more EV miles. Hence the 38 EPA rating vs 35. My 2011 has still gotten 45 miles + for the last 2 summers.
I have no idea if any Phoenix Volts have experienced degradation.. How could you tell by monitoring the kWh used during charging?.. the battery (unlike the Leaf) is never fully cycled.
I believe he watches his range as well as what goes in the car and both are consistent.

What about this? -->
DrI's watching of the SOC via the PID does not show any degradation.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=232799#p232799" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What does the LEAF do with the 12.5% (100-87.5%)?
 
scottf200 said:
Herm said:
The Volt's battery has as 40% reserve buffer that is never used, to extend battery life.. for all we know there may be Volts in Phoenix that have already lost some of that, yet the "usable kWh" display remains the same. My guess is that it will be a few years until that buffer is gone.
The Volt's SOC range is generally from 22% to 87% so 65% used. It can dip into the teens. (LEAF has 21kWh usage out of 24kWh so ~87.5%).

Actually, LEAF stores 22.48kwh out of 24kWh advertised, and doesn't use the bottom 0.5kWh.

With losses, meter inaccuracies, etc, we typical see 21kWh useable at the wheels.
 
Pipcecil said:
BUT I don't accept the inequality. Take a regular ICE car (like a Nissan Versa). Lets say the average life of the engine is 100,000 miles. If I drive 20,000 miles a year the engine only last 5 years, but that is my fault for driving so much. If someone else drives 10,000 a year it last 10 years. It doesn't matter if that person lives in Seattle, Phoenix, Dallas, New York, or Tampa Bay. If I drive 10,000 a year it will have about equal wear where ever I live.

But the leaf is different. 20,000 miles in Seattle does NOT equal 20,000 miles in Phoenix. ...!
I don't think that's true even for the ICE car. I'd expect the local climate to factor into the life of the car. Maybe not to the extent we're seeing, but it would definitely be a factor.

QueenBee said:
...His logic is flawed though since the length of the lease does not cover the life of the vehicle so while Nissan takes the initial burden once the lease is over either the original owner who buys the car or the next owner take on the rest of the risk. For Nissan to actually take on the risk of battery capacity they need to offer a real capacity warranty. ...
If the car is turned back in, the market should take battery health into consideration. I certainly wouldn't pay top dollar for an off-lease LEAF that has two battery bars missing.
 
scottf200 said:
]I believe he watches his range as well as what goes in the car and both are consistent.
What about this? -->
DrI's watching of the SOC via the PID does not show any degradation.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=232799#p232799" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ahh, I stand corrected.. the Volt does have a GID meter.
 
Here is a question that I would like for Hawk/Jeff Kuhlman to answer:
Is Nissan planning on releasing (or has it released) the Leaf in Dubai? If so, when? If so, will it have a liquid cooled BMS?
Thank you.
 
leafkabob said:
Here is a question that I would like for Hawk/Jeff Kuhlman to answer:
Is Nissan planning on releasing (or has it released) the Leaf in Dubai? If so, when? If so, will it have a liquid cooled BMS?
Thank you.

Here are some average temperatures:

....................Dubai.....................................Phoenix........

May: avg high 100F avg low 76F......ave high: 95F, average low: 69F
Jun: avg high 103F avg low 81F..... ave high: 104F, average low: 78F
July: avg high 105F avg low 86F.....ave high: 106F, average low: 83F
Aug: avg high 106F avg low 86F.....ave high: 104F, average low: 83F
Sept: avg high 102F avg low 81F.....ave high: 100F, average low: 77F
 
TonyWilliams said:
Here are some average temperatures:
Code:
...............Dubai...........|...............Phoenix............| Dubai-Phoenix 
May: avg high 100F avg low 76F | avg high:  95F, average low: 69F | avg diff +5
Jun: avg high 103F avg low 81F | avg high: 104F, average low: 78F | avg diff -1
Jul: avg high 105F avg low 86F | avg high: 106F, average low: 83F | avg diff -1
Aug: avg high 106F avg low 86F | avg high: 104F, average low: 83F | avg diff +2
Sep: avg high 102F avg low 81F | avg high: 100F, average low: 77F | avg diff +2
Those are ridiculously close. [use code to force monospace font and added avg diff col]
 
scottf200 said:
TonyWilliams said:
Here are some average temperatures:
Code:
...............Dubai...........|...............Phoenix............| Dubai-Phoenix 
May: avg high 100F avg low 76F | avg high:  95F, average low: 69F | avg diff +5
Jun: avg high 103F avg low 81F | avg high: 104F, average low: 78F | avg diff -1
Jul: avg high 105F avg low 86F | avg high: 106F, average low: 83F | avg diff -1
Aug: avg high 106F avg low 86F | avg high: 104F, average low: 83F | avg diff +2
Sep: avg high 102F avg low 81F | avg high: 100F, average low: 77F | avg diff +2
Those are ridiculously close. [use code to force monospace font and added avg diff col]

It makes some of these statements seem odd:

Mark Perry, Director of Product Planning for Nissan North America. On August 3, 2012, he was reported to have said, "We've also been very transparent in making sure people know that battery capacity will degrade in very high heat – for instance, if the cars sit out in 110-degree heat for five hours a day." He was also quoted as saying sometime before January 25, 2010, "We don't need thermal management for the U.S., but we are looking at the technology for Dubai and other locations like that.... We've gone on the record saying that the pack has a 70 to 80 percent capacity after 10 years."
 
TonyWilliams said:
scottf200 said:
TonyWilliams said:
Here are some average temperatures:
Code:
...............Dubai...........|...............Phoenix............| Dubai-Phoenix 
May: avg high 100F avg low 76F | avg high:  95F, average low: 69F | avg diff +5
Jun: avg high 103F avg low 81F | avg high: 104F, average low: 78F | avg diff -1
Jul: avg high 105F avg low 86F | avg high: 106F, average low: 83F | avg diff -1
Aug: avg high 106F avg low 86F | avg high: 104F, average low: 83F | avg diff +2
Sep: avg high 102F avg low 81F | avg high: 100F, average low: 77F | avg diff +2
Those are ridiculously close. [use code to force monospace font and added avg diff col]

It makes some of these statements seem odd:

Mark Perry, Director of Product Planning for Nissan North America. On August 3, 2012, he was reported to have said, "We've also been very transparent in making sure people know that battery capacity will degrade in very high heat – for instance, if the cars sit out in 110-degree heat for five hours a day." He was also quoted as saying sometime before January 25, 2010, "We don't need thermal management for the U.S., but we are looking at the technology for Dubai and other locations like that.... We've gone on the record saying that the pack has a 70 to 80 percent capacity after 10 years."

Thanks for the info, but I was already aware of that. I really want to know if Nissan plans to introduce the Leaf to Dubai. Here is a link to an article from the Gulf Coast:
http://www.drivearabia.com/news/201...uffering-battery-capacity-issues-due-to-heat/
We already know that both the Nissan Leaf and the Chevrolet Volt are being hot-weather tested right here in Dubai. Both cars will likely require extensive cooling mods before they can be launched in the GCC.
I recently heard a rumor that the Leaf was going to be rolled out in Dubai, so I would like for Jeff to respond to my question.

I want a Dubai car. ;)
 
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