Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF
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EVDRIVER said:
I really hope you are right because I will need a new pack well before the rest of the car is worn out.
Gerry
abasile
Well-known member
Provided it doesn't have to be done too soon, I love the idea of replacing my LEAF's battery pack at some point, and effectively making the car good as new again. This seems like a selling point to me. If the replacement pack price isn't exorbitantly high, I'll likely want a new pack once the current one drops below maybe 75% of its initial capacity. After all, I'm not paying for gasoline. The only real downside is still being stuck with slow 3.3 kW charging. I do own the car outright, and hope to drive it into the ground.
+1
TomT
Well-known member
What are you using for a 6.6Kw charger???
EVDRIVER said:
He probably has Phil's add-on charger.TomT said:
Here's a good link to start your reading if you hadn't heard of it yet: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=232638#p232638" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I can comment on maximum price for battery back. It was mentioned that Renault is doing this battery leasing idea and they teamed up with operator of robotic battery switching stations BetterPlace. I think best results are in Israel, and they offer variety of ways to pay for battery leasing and access to stations. They also offer ability to purchase battery, as buying a car where one cannot ever own battery is a bit risky. This is data from respectable newspaper so I assume it is right:
http://www.haaretz.com/business/chastened-by-market-better-place-sweetens-deal-for-electric-car-buyers-1.451596" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
77000 NIS is about 19000 $ and this price includes numerous Israeli taxes, duties and probably massive premium to make sure that you lease rather then buy battery. I think that is also ceiling to how much battery could cost.
It makes me wonder if problems of BetterPlace are not somehow related to rather warm climate in Israel and more frequent need to change batteries than anticipated.
http://www.haaretz.com/business/chastened-by-market-better-place-sweetens-deal-for-electric-car-buyers-1.451596" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
77000 NIS is about 19000 $ and this price includes numerous Israeli taxes, duties and probably massive premium to make sure that you lease rather then buy battery. I think that is also ceiling to how much battery could cost.
It makes me wonder if problems of BetterPlace are not somehow related to rather warm climate in Israel and more frequent need to change batteries than anticipated.
dgpcolorado said:
I had the EV system warning light on last week. However, there are a list of a half dozen things that could cause it. I think my issue was caused by an interrupted charge. Went away after I restarted the car. Took it to dealer and no codes were shown.
It would be nice if we could just go to AdvanceAuto, borrow their code reader and see which of the 6 or so issues it is.
TomT
Well-known member
Oh, I've heard of it I just didn't think Phil had made any available beyond his own car...
drees said:
TomT said:
Those guys are tight. Real tight. So it makes sense that EVD would have it already. Bet he has a LEAFScan too.
DeaneG
Well-known member
+1 My current plan is to replace the car after three or four years, not because of battery health (it appears to be working like new at almost 15K miles), but to get 6.6kW charging. It would make all of those Chargepoint stations suddenly useful.abasile said:
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
DeaneG said:
not sure i can agree with that. doubling the speed of L2 does not help me in most of the circumstances i would be likely in.
public charging falls into 2 categories. either is park it and enjoy the day while plugged in. L2 is very good for that but must be close to where i am going to be. more than a few blocks and that is out and that is not my choice. its my family. they simply refuse to walk and around here it is rainy a lot.
example (you can google map this) one of our favorite spots to eat is a "Main Chinese" cheap buffet prices and one of the best sushi bars in town. (5580 Martin Way East Lacey, WA 98516) and it has the advantage of having the biggeest theater complex in town in same parking lot.
across the street is the Dept of Ecology (300 Desmond Drive Southeast Lacey, WA 98503) which has a bank of charging stations.
on Google maps its roughly 500 ft apart which is probably close but to use the charging facility, i have to drop her off and then drive over and plug in. the walk takes maybe 4-5 minutes so its doable but not convenient especially if its raining.
now, DCFC. this allows us to get 30+ miles of range in 11 minutes ( http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2012/10/dcfc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . when charging the lower half of the pack. which means its a relatively short stop over to charge and can be done in any weather. granted its 11 minutes of my day devoted to sitting there but have done this a few times and found this option to be much more "family friendly"
A lot of stuff going on in this thread around battery price, most of them look fantastically low(5K$) or high(19K$). But I guess introductions are in order.September said:
My name is Edward and I am a professional investor living in Israel. My interest in the whole EV thing was aroused by me buying the shares of Renault SA in 2010 and I have been following it very closely since. I think I have gathered quite a lot of EV related financial info over the 2.5 years(which is my job being an investor in it).
Now to the point. It is quite easy to arrive to an approximate battery price with no need to resort to mostly false information provided by the public media(as in the Haaretz article).
Method 1 - calculating the battery price by cash flow discounting the Renault battery leases on the Fluence and Kangoo ZE in the UK:
These are the monthly lease prices for the Kangoo ZE battery pack. It contains the same battery modules as the LEAF, with the same module number as well. The pack itself is different in shape, which shouldn't matter much. While paying the lease, the pack is guaranteed 75% capacity(mentioned just below the price list).
http://www.renault.co.uk/resources/PDF/brochures/ze_pg.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Let's take the 15,000 miles a year lease per 3 years as a guide. I am assuming you lease this battery for a total of 10 years(its supposed useful life) for GBP 87 a month, or 140$ per month(it excludes VAT). I am also using a discount rate of 8% a year.
The present value factor for 10 years of payments at 8% per year is 6.71. This, multiplied by the annual payment of 1680$ for the lease gives us: 6.71X1680=11,272$ of battery price, today(add VAT if any).
You are welcome to play with different battery lease terms. Note every excess mile costs 4p per mile, or 0.064$. So a lease for 20,000 miles a year would be 140$ + 0.064$X5,000/12 = 140$ + 26.6$ = 166.6$ per month, plus VAT.
Alternatively, you can use the lease prices in France for the Fluence ZE battery(same as LEAF too, different packaging). Note that these include around 20% VAT:
http://www.renault.fr/gamme-renault/vehicules-electriques/fluence-ze/fluence-ze/ze-battery/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Method 2 - looking at what Better Place are paying for essentially the same battery in their Fluence ZE sedan:
Better place at one point clearly stated in a presentation that their cost per battery from Renault is EUR 9,900(that's 12,870$). Source:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/08/better-place-announces-business-plan-signs-israeli-lease-deal/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There are a few more methods available to arrive at battery replacement cost, but the above are the most direct ones.
So to conclude - you can relax. It's not 5,000$ nor 19,000$. It's probably around 12,000$.
However, considering you might trade in the old battery, there should be a discount. Guess time! It is my uneducated guess that you would be able to deduct around 2,000$ for the old battery you turn in assuming 70% original capacity or less.
Enjoy your LEAFs everyone!
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
edward said:
I used the simple 24kWh * $500 = $12,000
That doesn't mean that "list price" won't be $19,000, but the real price a shop pays will likely be closer to $12,000, as you state Better Place pays.
I suspect that remanufactured batteries with core trade will be one half to three quarters of new ($6000 -$9000 shop price exchange, $9500 - $14,250 "list price")
I don't believe they would actually replace all the cells in a pack, it's probably cheaper to either - give you a new pack and take the old, or replace individual cells. So if you want all new cells, you will probably pay 12K$ for new minus a 2K$ rebate for the old one, or 10K$ net.TonyWilliams said:
However, if I owned a LEAF, I wouldn't first consider buying new cells after 5 years to restore the range. Since new cells degrade faster than old, it is not smart to actually buy them at all! I would first attempt some hacking
What I would attempt to do(and maybe succeed) is with 3 more LEAF owners, buying another 5 year old pack. This pack should contain 48 modules. We disassemble the pack, with each of us getting 12 modules. Then we proceed to connect these 12 modules in parallel with the existing 48 module, 5 year old pack on our LEAF. This should theoretically result in 25% more range. So say after 5 years, range is 60 instead of 75 as new, this upgrade will restore it to 75. Note that around 100 pounds of weight will be added.
But the interesting bit is since battery degradation of a 5 year old battery should be slower than new, in 5 years the range won't be 60 again, but more like 67
. Also, consider that the cost of this operation should be very low compared to an all new battery. A 5 year old battery should cost 4,000$ or so, and be used for 4 cars. So each owner will pay 1,000$, plus other "hacking" costs such as labor and hardware tuning. This as opposed to 10,000$ net for a new battery.
It seems to me that this solution is several times cheaper and in some respects somewhat better than a brand new pack.
Maybe I'm delusional, but how's that for an idea?
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
Degradation should be balanced across all the cells on the pack which means an entire pack exchange its the only option
Yes, you probably couldn't connect additional 5 year old modules serially to the old ones because of the issue you raised.DaveinOlyWA said:
However, is it absolutely not possible to somehow connect them in parallel or as an additional range extending reserve?(i.e. them feeding juice to the primary battery pack as needed).
Surely you could use additional modules to feed the main battery, same as the main battery feeds the 12V battery?
thankyouOB
Well-known member
and all this should prove to nissan top dogs that LEAFers really really really want to know the price of a new pack installed.
they may have not pre-thought that in all their LEAF marketing planning, but it is a BIG deal.
hello mark and andy?
they may have not pre-thought that in all their LEAF marketing planning, but it is a BIG deal.
hello mark and andy?
LEAFfan
Well-known member
edward said:I don't believe they would actually replace all the cells in a pack, it's probably cheaper to either - give you a new pack and take the old, or replace individual cells. So if you want all new cells, you will probably pay 12K$ for new minus a 2K$ rebate for the old one, or 10K$ net.TonyWilliams said:
However, if I owned a LEAF, I wouldn't first consider buying new cells after 5 years to restore the range. Since new cells degrade faster than old, it is not smart to actually buy them at all! I would first attempt some hacking
What I would attempt to do(and maybe succeed) is with 3 more LEAF owners, buying another 5 year old pack. This pack should contain 48 modules. We disassemble the pack, with each of us getting 12 modules. Then we proceed to connect these 12 modules in parallel with the existing 48 module, 5 year old pack on our LEAF. This should theoretically result in 25% more range. So say after 5 years, range is 60 instead of 75 as new, this upgrade will restore it to 75. Note that around 100 pounds of weight will be added.
But the interesting bit is since battery degradation of a 5 year old battery should be slower than new, in 5 years the range won't be 60 again, but more like 67
Also, consider that the cost of this operation should be very low compared to an all new battery. A 5 year old battery should cost 4,000$ or so, and be used for 4 cars. So each owner will pay 1,000$, plus other "hacking" costs such as labor and hardware tuning. This as opposed to 10,000$ net for a new battery.
It seems to me that this solution is several times cheaper and in some respects somewhat better than a brand new pack.
Maybe I'm delusional, but how's that for an idea?
Sounds like a good idea, just don't buy any used packs from Phoenix or any other hot climates. :evil: