Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

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are we really going on and on about Dubai?
I thought we were trying to get nissan to open up about marketing and battery issues in the AZ and USA.

to paraphrase randy newman:
Let's leave dubai to the eskimos.
 
thankyouOB said:
I thought we were trying to get nissan to open up about marketing and battery issues in the AZ and USA.
The geographic breakdown of these cases is: Arizona - 52, Texas - 23, California - 29
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
thankyouOB said:
are we really going on and on about Dubai?
I thought we were trying to get nissan to open up about marketing and battery issues in the AZ and USA.

It looks like to me that you didn't understand his point. He IS talking about battery issues. If Nissan makes a special LEAF for Dubai with active cooling, what's wrong with him or anyone else in the hotter states wanting one?
 
LEAFfan said:
thankyouOB said:
are we really going on and on about Dubai?
I thought we were trying to get nissan to open up about marketing and battery issues in the AZ and USA.

It looks like to me that you didn't understand his point. He IS talking about battery issues. If Nissan makes a special LEAF for Dubai with active cooling, what's wrong with him or anyone else in the hotter states wanting one?

i understand alright. ck the link and origin on the Dubai quote from Nissan guy, mark perry. it is from a blog post that is ~three years old, and it was qualified/fudged, too. and there is no telling how many years or months before that perry actually said it.

it is not as if it is a statement in tune with reality, or current events.

i would skip all the needless dubai temp comparisons.
jeez. a waste of time.

linkee here:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/25/is-the-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-under-engineered/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
thankyouOB said:
LEAFfan said:
thankyouOB said:
are we really going on and on about Dubai?
I thought we were trying to get nissan to open up about marketing and battery issues in the AZ and USA.

It looks like to me that you didn't understand his point. He IS talking about battery issues. If Nissan makes a special LEAF for Dubai with active cooling, what's wrong with him or anyone else in the hotter states wanting one?

i understand alright. ck the link and origin on the Dubai quote from Nissan guy, mark perry. it is from a blog post that is ~three years old, and it was qualified/fudged, too. and there is no telling how many years or months before that perry actually said it.
it is not as if it is a statement in tune with reality, or current events.
i would skip all the needless dubai temp comparisons.
jeez. a waste of time.
linkee here:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/25/is-the-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-under-engineered/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We're not talking about what Perry said three years ago. We're talking about today...the testing going on right now in Dubai. The OP has a legitimate question.
 
^^^
I think he also brought up Dubai at the meeting at the Googleplex last year. I was there but someone else who attended can confirm whether or not my recollection is correct.
 
leafkabob said:
Here is a question that I would like for Hawk/Jeff Kuhlman to answer:
Is Nissan planning on releasing (or has it released) the Leaf in Dubai? If so, when? If so, will it have a liquid cooled BMS?
Thank you.

here (above) is what prompted this sidetracking.
along with you saying you had "heard" about it.
i dont see any legitimate provenance for saying nissan is doing a special BMS for arabia or hot climates.

there is no there there.
 
thankyouOB said:
leafkabob said:
Here is a question that I would like for Hawk/Jeff Kuhlman to answer:
Is Nissan planning on releasing (or has it released) the Leaf in Dubai? If so, when? If so, will it have a liquid cooled BMS?
Thank you.

here (above) is what prompted this sidetracking.
along with you saying you had "heard" about it.
i dont see any legitimate provenance for saying nissan is doing a special BMS for arabia or hot climates.

there is no there there.
Thank you for your opinion. I do not consider this "sidetracking." The person who told me the leaf was coming to Dubai has had many recent phone conversations with Nissan execs. I don't know if he heard it there, or where the rumor came from, but given all of our problems here in Phoenix, I thought it worthy of asking. If in fact Nissan IS introducing the car in Dubai, then I would be very interested in knowing how different it is from my car. If Nissan has decided NOT to introduce the car in Dubai, I would likewise be very interested in knowing their reasoning. If they are not going to roll it out in Dubai then they have changed their plans. I would find that very revealing.
 
^^^ I can already guess what Nissan is going to do in Dubai without anybody having to ask Nissan anything. Nissan is going to roll out the LEAF in Dubai for sure. But they're not going to have TMS or a different battery chemistry. And they're still going to say it will go 100 miles. And they're still not going to warn anybody about temperature effect or anything like that, just like they didn't do it for AZ folks a year ago. In short, they're going to sell LEAFs in Dubai just like they're still selling LEAFs currently in AZ, no difference.

What they may do differently based on what they learn from AZ is perhaps they're going to reprogram the Dubai's LEAF firmware so that the first capacity bar will not disappear until after 30% capacity loss or more. :lol:
 
Volusiano said:
^^^ I can already guess what Nissan is going to do in Dubai without anybody having to ask Nissan anything. Nissan is going to roll out the LEAF in Dubai for sure. But they're not going to have TMS or a different battery chemistry. And they're still going to say it will go 100 miles. And they're still not going to warn anybody about temperature effect or anything like that, just like they didn't do it for AZ folks a year ago. In short, they're going to sell LEAFs in Dubai just like they're still selling LEAFs currently in AZ, no difference.

What they may do differently based on what they learn from AZ is perhaps they're going to reprogram the Dubai's LEAF firmware so that the first capacity bar will not disappear until after 30% capacity loss or more. :lol:

I disagree that they will sell leafs in Dubai just as they are in Phoenix. Mark Perry implied that Dubai would need TMS because its weather was so extreme. It appears that at least as of 2010 Nissan expected to sell the leaf in Dubai. The fact that they have not yet done so tells me that they do not have a solution for the battery capacity loss we are seeing in Phoenix.

On the other hand, if they have plans to bring the car to Dubai within the next year or so, that tells me that they have a solution. If so, then perhaps they will sell that version of the Leaf in Phoenix, Texas, etc.

The bottom line is that I think it is a question worth asking Jeff Kuhlman.
 
It is interesting that Ford has a price for the battery pack for the Focus BEV. Currently is:

$19,525.24

http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=%2floLll9waIxs1hVAWOM2HQ%3d%3d&id=209280394&m=2&search=true&year=2013&make=Ford&model=Focus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Plus installation, of course. This is rather more than news reports would suggest that Ford's cost is.

Leads me to wonder how much negotiation room that there might be. You can buy a car for that... And the car can be thousands off MSRP. Will a battery pack also have the some room for discounting?

When is Nissan going to have a price for a battery pack? Even a high price is better than no price at all...
 
WetEV said:
It is interesting that Ford has a price for the battery pack for the Focus BEV. Currently is:

$19,525.24

http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=%2floLll9waIxs1hVAWOM2HQ%3d%3d&id=209280394&m=2&search=true&year=2013&make=Ford&model=Focus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whoa! That's been repriced...A LOT HIGHER. As of last month the same part was listed at $10,508.38! :shock:
 
mwalsh said:
Whoa! That's been repriced...A LOT HIGHER. As of last month the same part was listed at $10,508.38! :shock:

Yes. Interesting, isn't it? The 10k price was very very good. Maybe good enough to get some interest from the home conversion market.

There have only been one (or so) Leafs that have hit EOL or 70% loss. As the Focus BEV has active pack cooling, and as there are both fewer of them and they have been out for less time, I really doubt if anyone will actually order this part for a Focus BEV for a few years...

Note that there is no core charge listed.
 
WetEV said:
Note that there is no core charge listed.

That, no doubt, is "list" price for a new product (without a core). The "jobber" or "net" price for a dealer will be substantially less.

Typically, the rebuilt/remanufactured part will have a core charge. Not a new part.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Typically, the rebuilt/remanufactured part will have a core charge. Not a new part.
Nah, there should be a core charge. These manufacturers should be showing some responsibility to ensure that spent EV batteries are recycled into new batteries as completely as possible.
 
there would be no core charge because that price would be determined by the exchanged unit. the battery could conceivably be destroyed rendering it nearly worthless verses one that has run the course in its automotive life with 70% of its capacity and still worth several thousand
 
leafkabob said:
Volusiano said:
^^^ I can already guess what Nissan is going to do in Dubai without anybody having to ask Nissan anything. Nissan is going to roll out the LEAF in Dubai for sure. But they're not going to have TMS or a different battery chemistry. And they're still going to say it will go 100 miles. And they're still not going to warn anybody about temperature effect or anything like that, just like they didn't do it for AZ folks a year ago. In short, they're going to sell LEAFs in Dubai just like they're still selling LEAFs currently in AZ, no difference.

What they may do differently based on what they learn from AZ is perhaps they're going to reprogram the Dubai's LEAF firmware so that the first capacity bar will not disappear until after 30% capacity loss or more. :lol:

I disagree that they will sell leafs in Dubai just as they are in Phoenix. Mark Perry implied that Dubai would need TMS because its weather was so extreme. It appears that at least as of 2010 Nissan expected to sell the leaf in Dubai. The fact that they have not yet done so tells me that they do not have a solution for the battery capacity loss we are seeing in Phoenix.

On the other hand, if they have plans to bring the car to Dubai within the next year or so, that tells me that they have a solution. If so, then perhaps they will sell that version of the Leaf in Phoenix, Texas, etc.

The bottom line is that I think it is a question worth asking Jeff Kuhlman.
Leafkabob, I'm just being sarcastic here, that's all. I guess you're taking what Mark Perry said about doing it differently in Dubai seriously, while I took it with a grain of salt.

As you can see, somebody showed a temperature chart, and Phoenix is just as hot as Dubai. As far as I'm concerned, Mark Perry was just bs'ing to prove a point that Phoenix temperature is OK for the LEAF in his opinion, and he used Dubai as a (bad) reference to compare against Phoenix.

But the way I read between the lines, I think Nissan has no intention do have a different design with TMS for the LEAF just so they can sell in Dubai. Why would they? If they already have such a design for Dubai, why wouldn't they have used that as their "saving grace" and introduce that version to Phoenix now, after all this fiasco?

I guess we can find out whether you're right (Nissan is serious) or I'm right (Mark Perry was just bs'ing) if Jeff Kuhlman decides to answer your question after all.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
there would be no core charge because that price would be determined by the exchanged unit. the battery could conceivably be destroyed rendering it nearly worthless verses one that has run the course in its automotive life with 70% of its capacity and still worth several thousand
Yeah, perhaps Ford's new, higher price includes the core charge and the buy back is negotiated separately. When a single part costs as much as a new car, I guess things could be a little different.
 
RegGuheert said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
there would be no core charge because that price would be determined by the exchanged unit. the battery could conceivably be destroyed rendering it nearly worthless verses one that has run the course in its automotive life with 70% of its capacity and still worth several thousand
Yeah, perhaps Ford's new, higher price includes the core charge and the buy back is negotiated separately. When a single part costs as much as a new car, I guess things could be a little different.

ya core charge is really a misleading term. it should be "pro-rated" exchange like with batteries and tires.
 
Volusiano said:
As you can see, somebody showed a temperature chart, and Phoenix is just as hot as Dubai. As far as I'm concerned, Mark Perry was just bs'ing to prove a point that Phoenix temperature is OK for the LEAF in his opinion, and he used Dubai as a (bad) reference to compare against Phoenix.
While I agree with the general thrust of your statement, it isn't strictly true since new data shows that Dubai has a battery aging factor about 20% higher than Phoenix:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Factors_Affecting_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(scroll down to new table of battery aging factors)
 
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