adric22
Posts: 2488
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:40 pm
Delivery Date: 05 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 000768
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:02 pm

The Volt and Leaf are both a steal if you lease them. I really don't understand why GM and Nissan haven't caught onto this and started heavily advertising the lease rate. I've surprised a lot of people when I tell them that I pay less per month on my lease than they do for gasoline. So it is almost like I get a free car, the way I see it. Several people I know who drive large trucks to work (for no logical reason) actually pay a LOT more in gas per month than I do for my whole car + electricity to power it. I've told those people they could keep their big truck and lease a Leaf or Volt to drive to work and actually save money (assuming their insurance rates aren't too high) as long as they'd be willing to drive the EV to work. But they enjoy driving the big truck so much that they aren't willing to give it up as a daily driver.
2013 Blue Nissan Leaf SV
2012 Summit White Chevy Volt

tcherniaev
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:03 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jan 2012
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:49 pm

cwerdna wrote:

See http://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml#RESELEC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml#RESELEC_TOU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for more info. From http://www.pge.com/about/rates/rateinfo/rateoptions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, E-1 (non-TOU) and E-6 (TOU) are options as well as possibly E-9. E-6 and E-9 make peak rates at tier 1 (baseline) as high as $0.30/kwh and can reach 0.54/kwh if you're at tier 5.

For my most recent electric bill, I used 253 kwh (I'm home all the time, since I'm not working) which was within my baseline (of 319 kwh for those 29 days) but with taxes and crap it came out to $34.30 or ~$0.1355/kwh. I'm currently on E-1 which is non-TOU.

I had some discussion about rates in my area w/someone else and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 19#p155519" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was a post about what might happen to my rates.

OP or those w/cheap electricity ought to try plugging your total usage to http://www.pge.com/yourtiers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Put in 95136 zip code, select the appropriate answer for #3 and answer no for #4. You'll see how much of a rip PG&E is.

The above estimator is reasonably close for me ($32.89 for 253 kwh, so they seem to be excluding taxes and fees). If I add 300 kwh to make it 553 kwh, my estimated bill is $94.50 (I'm guessing this is w/o tax and fees), a delta of $56.11.
I just plugged my usage into the calculator and came up with $300 bill. That compares poorly with $105 I paid in Utah for 1150 kwh last month. Glad I don't live in PG&E area.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14156
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:12 pm

it is obvious that several factors are at play when considering TCO. its interesting someone says we will be looking at battery replacement at 50,000 miles when we have forum members who have over 53,000 miles and are a long way from a 30% loss. granted, he lives in WA which i am guessing will probably be known as the LEAF mileage state. add to that, cheap juice and ya, i find it hard to believe that people up here are not jumping all over those lease terms.

now, i have not been shopping the lease terms around here but all i can say is used LEAF prices are pretty high here. too many LEAFs selling for 24-25,000 (asking price that is) when mine was 28,000 after fed tax credit. not much of a drop in price there.

granted 2012's are more expensive but they do have CWP which does have value in this area.

when i leased i thought it would be a slam dunk answer as to keeping the LEAF (unlikely) or getting the 2014 version but its not that cut and dried any more. my residual is $15,000 and my battery is holding up pretty well. might be a pretty good deal to buy it out
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gaswalla
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:07 pm
Delivery Date: 24 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 5012
Location: Coastal San Diego

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:00 pm

We have about 3 folks with 50k miles and claiming good battery capacity, and over 100 folks with over 15% loss already. In fact, the number of people that have lost 3 capacity bars outnumber the people with 50k miles.

madbrain
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:53 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 023874
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:08 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:electrical rates will be a huge determining factor in how much you save in transportation costs but what is true is you will either save a decent amount of money or you will save a lot of money. you really cant lose.
Disagree here, you can certainly lose financially with a Leaf.

As cwerdna pointed out, a gasoline Prius will cost about the same in fuel costs as electric costs in a PG&E area once you are in tier 3 or above. I calculated $85 for electricity based on 12000 miles a year, 3 miles per kWh, and a rate of 26 cents/kWh that the extra 4000 annual kWh would average to, vs my $88 for my Prius based on 12000 miles a year, 45 MPG on the Prius, and $4/gallon for gas.

And if you think I am exaggerating with the 26 cents kWh, the current top rate $0.33561 cents/kWh with E-1 summer, and $0.48653 for summer peak with E-6 TOU . I am on E-6 because of solar but right now mostly in tiers 1 to 3. But adding the EV would put me to the highest tier.

Oh, and PG&E changes its rates 4 times per year, and the top rate has been as high as 49 cents/kWh for non-TOU and 59 cents for TOU, as recently as 2 years ago.

Here is the PG&E electric rate history :
http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/electric.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sadly, I'm not exaggerating at all, there have been 8 new non-TOU schedules in the last 2 years, and another 8 new TOU schedules.
And each time PG&E creates new rates for both winter and summer. Half the rates these bureaucrats designed have never even taken effect before they were superceded !

Here is the non-TOU schedule for 2 years ago with 49 cents/kWh top rate. http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/R ... 100531.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And the TOU schedule for 2 years ago. I was wrong, the top rate didn't go to 59 cents, but to 67.9 cents/kWh
http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/R ... 100531.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And with the 5 decimals PG&E uses everywhere, it takes them E no less than 16 pages of computations to figure out the total of my electric bill every month.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1eSSO ... ER2bEtqcGs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, anyone who is consistently hitting high tiers will figure out pretty quickly they need to get solar.
I got solar within 2 months of moving into my large home 2 years ago. But it was sized properly to reduce me to the low tiers, but not 0. But adding the EV charging now would put me back into the high tiers... So EV charging means adding more solar again. Hopefully by monday I will have my 12 additional PV panels up in addition to the existing 28. But they are not free.

Fueling/charging costs not necessarily the main issue, though.
Even if your electricity cost is less than your fueling cost, there are other factors that might be more important.

The monthly payment will be in favor of a new Leaf vs a new gasoline Prius, either if you lease the Leaf, or if you buy it and are able to take advantage of the federal tax credit yourself. But I doubt the $10k of incentives will last forever.

At this time, used Leafs are not really an option, since right now they cost the same or more than you can get them for new in California which is about $23k if you buy a new one with the full $10k of incentives - certainly doable for a new SV and possibly on a new SL too. But you can purchase a used gasoline Prius for much less than a new one. Things will change as the Leafs get older and the used ones drop in value.

Your insurance will also be less on a used Prius than on a used Leaf, since the Leafs have only been made for a couple years, Prius have been sold in the US since 2001.
Last edited by madbrain on Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

cwerdna
Posts: 9742
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:49 pm

madbrain wrote: And with the 5 decimals PG&E uses everywhere, it takes them E no less than 16 pages of computations to figure out the total of my electric bill every month.
Wow. Your bill/statement is nuts and at least order or two of magnitude more complex than mine. I guess it's because you have solar (thus have net metering) and you're on TOU schedule vs. me w/no solar and E-1 (non-TOU) schedule. I'd guess I'd have to read a long document to decipher it.
Last edited by cwerdna on Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

madbrain
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:53 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 023874
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:24 am

cwerdna wrote: Wow. Your bill/statement is nuts and at least order or two of magnitude more complex than mine. I guess it's because you have solar (thus have net metering) and you're on TOU schedule vs. me w/no solar and E-1 (non-TOU) schedule. I'd guess I'd have to read a long document to decipher it.
It is completely nuts, isn't it ?
Until now PG&E had been mailing the NEMS statement to me, but the print statement only had the first 2 pages, without the intermediate calculations, just the totals and the annual summary, and without any real way to figure out how they arrived at the totals from the kWh in each tier.

I didn't know that the NEM statement was also online until I called them last week and they told me where it was hidden. I just told them to stop wasting trees and no longer mail it to me.

The way they compute this is indeed insane, I still haven't figured it out exactly.
I have a spreadsheet that I put together in the summer that attempts to calculate the bill from the inputs - number of days, and number of kWh in each tier - and a reference to a separate sheet for the month.
My spreasheet is still off by a couple dollars over the last two years vs the actual bill.
If I have the inclination, I think I will spend time some day to try to make it match exactly what PG&E bills ...

IMO, the rate structure is ridiculous. With the TOU the bill is utterly unpredictable also - until you go on it, you just don't know how much of your usage will fall between each tier.
I'm very reluctant to switch from E-9 to E-6 for that reason.
My spreadsheet actually compares E-1 to E-6, but you can't compare E-6 and E-9 because you would need data for different hours.
And the meter only records data for one rate single rate schedule.

Speaking of the meter... When I bought the house 2 years, there was a brand new SmartMeter. But it wasn't networked because PG&E hadn't built the network yet. Then I put in solar. Then PG&E took the SmartMeter away and replaced it with a StupidMeter(TM), I mean a GE NetMeter.
And they have been sending a guy to read the meter manually each month.
And I learned they are billing me an extra 25 cents a day for this - which is buried somewhere in those 16 pages of calculations.

The reason they took the SmartMeter away from me, and never installed it for any solar customer, was that their SmartMeter backend billing system could not handle negative amounts! I wish I was kidding you ...

They apparently have fixed that backend issue finally now, but they have yet to put back the SmartMeter in, and it can't be soon enough ...

cwerdna
Posts: 9742
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:39 am

madbrain wrote: Speaking of the meter... When I bought the house 2 years, there was a brand new SmartMeter. But it wasn't networked because PG&E hadn't built the network yet. Then I put in solar. Then PG&E took the SmartMeter away and replaced it with a StupidMeter(TM), I mean a GE NetMeter.
And they have been sending a guy to read the meter manually each month.
And I learned they are billing me an extra 25 cents a day for this - which is buried somewhere in those 16 pages of calculations.

The reason they took the SmartMeter away from me, and never installed it for any solar customer, was that their SmartMeter backend billing system could not handle negative amounts! I wish I was kidding you ...

They apparently have fixed that backend issue finally now, but they have yet to put back the SmartMeter in, and it can't be soon enough ...
I'd heard something like that re: Smart Meters and solar.

FWIW, for me, under My Usage > My Rates, they list cost estimates if I were to stay w/my current schedule or switch to 3 other choices: Time-of-Use + SmartRate™ (E6-Smart), Time-of-Use (E6), or Standard + SmartRate™ (E1-Smart). They also can give me a breakdown month by month about estimates costs for E1 vs. one of the others.

It claims I'll save w/all of them but the most with Time-of-Use + SmartRate™ (E6-Smart). I'll probably switch to that once we enter their "winter" period so I don't get hit by crazy high bills in "summer".

In comparison, these rates are cheap and simple: http://www.douglaspud.org/Service/2012R ... 12012.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (VERY cheap) and https://www.seattle.gov/light/accounts/ ... 24.htm#rsc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I don't anything about how their net metering works for solar.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:28 am

gaswalla wrote:We have about 3 folks with 50k miles and claiming good battery capacity, and over 100 folks with over 15% loss already. In fact, the number of people that have lost 3 capacity bars outnumber the people with 50k miles.
Sure, but that's not a great comparison given that very few people drive over 50,000 miles in less than two years, particularly in an EV with a sub-100-mile range. I suspect there will be FAR more LEAFs that last beyond 100,000 miles than succumb in under 30,000. It will be interesting to see what the mean battery miles at EOL turns out to be.

But clearly the battery life and replacement cost are significant in any EV TCO calculation.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

Stukid
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 Aug 2012
Leaf Number: 018258
Location: Valrico FL
Contact: Website

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:47 am

adric22 wrote:The Volt and Leaf are both a steal if you lease them. I really don't understand why GM and Nissan haven't caught onto this and started heavily advertising the lease rate. I've surprised a lot of people when I tell them that I pay less per month on my lease than they do for gasoline. So it is almost like I get a free car, the way I see it. Several people I know who drive large trucks to work (for no logical reason) actually pay a LOT more in gas per month than I do for my whole car + electricity to power it. I've told those people they could keep their big truck and lease a Leaf or Volt to drive to work and actually save money (assuming their insurance rates aren't too high) as long as they'd be willing to drive the EV to work. But they enjoy driving the big truck so much that they aren't willing to give it up as a daily driver.
The guy who likes to drive his huge F-350 with dual rear wheels as a commuter car is the same guy who comes barreling up behind me, flashes his lights, passes me only for me to come up behind him at the next light. That guy, he will never drive a Leaf! Rightfully so, he can drive what he wants, but he will also pay out the wazoo to keep it fueled.
So think about it, that guy pays a boatload for his truck, needs a paycheck to fill the tank, maintenance costs are tremendous, and you can't even park it without either taking up 2 spots or having the back end stick way out. (especially when that guy leaves his trailer hitch receiver on)
For every Leaf (Prius, Volt etc) owner, that guy still out numbers us by a huge margin. Or am I wrong?
2012 LEAF
2008 PRIUS

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