LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

cwerdna said:

FWIW, for me, under My Usage > My Rates, they list cost estimates if I were to stay w/my current schedule or switch to 3 other choices: Time-of-Use + SmartRate™ (E6-Smart), Time-of-Use (E6), or Standard + SmartRate™ (E1-Smart). They also can give me a breakdown month by month about estimates costs for E1 vs. one of the others.

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I guess they can do this because you have a SmartMeter and it must be recording the data for all the different time periods of all the different schedules.
In my case, "My usage" only shows my gas usage, nothing electric at all showing there. So I have no idea if switching to E-9 would be good or bad.

It claims I'll save w/all of them but the most with Time-of-Use + SmartRate™ (E6-Smart). I'll probably switch to that once we enter their "winter" period so I don't get hit by crazy high bills in "summer".

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When you are on solar (net metering) you are on an annual rate schedule, I am not sure it's possible to change mid-year.

In comparison, these rates are cheap and simple: http://www.douglaspud.org/Service/2012RatesJuly12012.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (VERY cheap) and https://www.seattle.gov/light/accounts/rates/ac5_erps24.htm#rsc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I don't anything about how their net metering works for solar.

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With those kinds of rates, I don't think solar makes financial sense.

Stukid said:

adric22 said:

The Volt and Leaf are both a steal if you lease them. I really don't understand why GM and Nissan haven't caught onto this and started heavily advertising the lease rate. I've surprised a lot of people when I tell them that I pay less per month on my lease than they do for gasoline. So it is almost like I get a free car, the way I see it. Several people I know who drive large trucks to work (for no logical reason) actually pay a LOT more in gas per month than I do for my whole car + electricity to power it. I've told those people they could keep their big truck and lease a Leaf or Volt to drive to work and actually save money (assuming their insurance rates aren't too high) as long as they'd be willing to drive the EV to work. But they enjoy driving the big truck so much that they aren't willing to give it up as a daily driver.

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The guy who likes to drive his huge F-350 with dual rear wheels as a commuter car is the same guy who comes barreling up behind me, flashes his lights, passes me only for me to come up behind him at the next light. That guy, he will never drive a Leaf! Rightfully so, he can drive what he wants, but he will also pay out the wazoo to keep it fueled.
So think about it, that guy pays a boatload for his truck, needs a paycheck to fill the tank, maintenance costs are tremendous, and you can't even park it without either taking up 2 spots or having the back end stick way out. (especially when that guy leaves his trailer hitch receiver on)
For every Leaf (Prius, Volt etc) owner, that guy still out numbers us by a huge margin. Or am I wrong?

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sad, but true. There's really no reason to change for most of these folks until gas prices get up to European levels..

Stukid said:

The guy who likes to drive his huge F-350 with dual rear wheels as a commuter car is the same guy who comes barreling up behind me, flashes his lights, passes me only for me to come up behind him at the next light. That guy, he will never drive a Leaf! Rightfully so, he can drive what he wants, but he will also pay out the wazoo to keep it fueled.
So think about it, that guy pays a boatload for his truck, needs a paycheck to fill the tank, maintenance costs are tremendous, and you can't even park it without either taking up 2 spots or having the back end stick way out. (especially when that guy leaves his trailer hitch receiver on)
For every Leaf (Prius, Volt etc) owner, that guy still out numbers us by a huge margin. Or am I wrong?

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Don't worry, the laws of natural selection are in our favor. His type will die out more quickly than we will.

Who killed the electric car? PG&E with help from the CPUC. SMUD (Sacramento) where the state capitol is, and presumably the bulk of state staff lives, charges 10c up to 700 kWH then 17c/kWH on the regular R-1 rate plan. PG&E with consent from their "regulator" cronies charges some of the highest rates in the country. PG&E commerical rates aren't bad, but the residential rates are nearly criminal.

As the CPUC is unable to regulate PG&E they need to open the electricity market and let the market regulate itself. Then we can save even more money by eliminating the inept CPUC staff.

All of these various rate plans, and rooftop solar (for purely economic reasons) is just a way of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to try to escape 34c/kWH residential electric rates! Where else does the cost from a low quantity factory (generator) compare favorably with a large scale "regulated" monopoly?

you guys should rebel on the PG&E rates.
LADWP TOU residential per kWh
----------------- June to September /// October to May
1-5pm ------------ .22 /// .12.5
--
10am-1pm
&
--------- .14 /// .12.5
5pm-8pm
------
8pm-10am ---------- .10.6 /// .11

with .02.5 off as an electric car discount for every kwh used during the overnight period up to 5kwh per month.

car costs about 2 cents a mile to fuel.

sorry for the lack of columns. the webtool ate them.

---------------
also, after credits and rebate, i paid 20.5k plus tax on 33k for an SL in 2011. what could be cheaper with these fueling costs?
nothing.

gaswalla said:

We have about 3 folks with 50k miles and claiming good battery capacity, and over 100 folks with over 15% loss already. In fact, the number of people that have lost 3 capacity bars outnumber the people with 50k miles.

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Yes. In different climates.

Take someone in Juneau, AK, who limits charge/discharge rates to mostly 1C (+-20 kW drive/regenerate maximum), L2 change only, keeps SOC average around 40%, rarely goes above 70% SOC or below 20% SOC, Yes, such a person probably doesn't exist. If you have ever been to Juneau, you would probably understand why. But if they did, they would probably get to about 300,000 miles to 400,000 miles before losing 30%. That's over 25 years at 1000 miles a month. Might make the news... in 2035 or so. Unless they hit a moose first.

I suspect that there are some in Seattle area that might get to 240,000 miles. Depending on exactly where, what the garage is like, driving style, how flat the commute, charging and SOC, etc. Again, that's 20 years.

WetEV said:

gaswalla said:

We have about 3 folks with 50k miles and claiming good battery capacity, and over 100 folks with over 15% loss already. In fact, the number of people that have lost 3 capacity bars outnumber the people with 50k miles.

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Yes. In different climates.

Take someone in Juneau, AK, who limits charge/discharge rates to mostly 1C (+-20 kW drive/regenerate maximum), L2 change only, keeps SOC average around 40%, rarely goes above 70% SOC or below 20% SOC, Yes, such a person probably doesn't exist. If you have ever been to Juneau, you would probably understand why. But if they did, they would probably get to about 300,000 miles to 400,000 miles before losing 30%. That's over 25 years at 1000 miles a month. Might make the news... in 2035 or so. Unless they hit a moose first.

I suspect that there are some in Seattle area that might get to 240,000 miles. Depending on exactly where, what the garage is like, driving style, how flat the commute, charging and SOC, etc. Again, that's 20 years.

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nope wont happen. time degradation will also have to be considered and its really time spent at higher SOC's and what is too high? i would consider much over 40% SOC to be "high"

optimum long term storage SOC is low, too low to be practical in a transportation sense. so even charging to 80% is a compromise because that SOC is degrading your batteries albeit, very slight rate to be sure but a rate nevertheless.

so if driving a lot, SOC has to be high to get range since no one is likely to stop and charge several times a day to drive 100 miles. they would do it once near their halfway point and so on but guessing 200,000 miles is definitely still on the table for someone like TaylorSF but for others like me for instance? probably 120-150,000 simply because TaylorSF will get his 200,000 in 4 years, i will get my 120,000 in 8 years. even if our charging, driving techniques, etc were very similar.

now, keep in mind; this scenario minimizes other degradation factors that we dont have to consider but others do. each factor is not additive in effect which makes the whole degradation question very much a question.

this kinda reminds of a explanation of Toyota's Synergy Drive System. the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and i fear that degradation falls into this category as well. Phoenix owners, i fear are simply caught in a "perfect storm"

thankyouOB said:

you guys should rebel on the PG&E rates.
LADWP TOU residential per kWh
June to September October to May
1-5pm .22 .12.5
10am-1pm & .14 .12.5
5pm-8pm
8pm-10am .10.6 .11

with .02.5 off as an electric car discount for every kwh used during the overnight period up to 5kwh per month.

car costs about 2 cents a mile to fuel.

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oooh boy... umm, Madbrain; please don t take this the wrong way, but We in Olympia are also tired of paying outrageous electrical rates with minimal service. Since we do pay the highest rates in the state 400-500% higher than some areas and more commonly 40-50% higher than the majority of the state, we have an initiative to purchase Puget Sound Energy's electrical system and incorporate it into the County PUD. naturally the initial purchase price will take a long time to pay off and the electrical rates are expected to only be slightly lower (less than 10%) for 20 years before our rates will go down, but the primary goal is an improved level of service which is why we want this.

we have tiered electrical and i dont know what the rate is for tier 3 but in tier two which i am with the 1.25 cents/kwh for green power added, i am paying just over eleven and a half cents

DaveinOlyWA said:

oooh boy... umm, Madbrain; please don t take this the wrong way, but We in Olympia are also tired of paying outrageous electrical rates with minimal service. Since we do pay the highest rates in the state 400-500% higher than some areas and more commonly 40-50% higher than the majority of the state...
we have tiered electrical and i dont know what the rate is for tier 3 but in tier two which i am with the 1.25 cents/kwh for green power added, i am paying just over eleven and a half cents

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Really? You think that's expensive? I know Washington State is green-electricity heaven, but c'mon. Even with your green-power addon, you are below average for the US. I am on TOU here in Madison WI. Including the 3 cent Green Power Tomorrow addon, I pay 7 cents off-peak (9P - 10A during the week and all weekend) and 27 cents(!) on-peak. Talk about incentive to charge overnight! Oddly, though, my Leaf at 4.7miles/kWh boils down to two cents per mile, like a lot of other folks.

Of course, I also have 4.15Kw of solar PV, but it's getting darker and darker out there.... Christmas cannot come too soon for me. <sigh>

tcherniaev said:

So based on these affordability numbers we should call LEAF a people's car, a car that an 'average Joe' can easily afford. So why all this talk in the media about LEAF being an expensive vehicle that most can't afford? Statistically, most CAN afford to buy LEAF!

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Because the media is behind the ball. I am leasing my Leaf at about the same cost as if I went out now and tried to lease a Sentra or a civic or similar, and yet $35 gets me 1000 miles.

Yep I just checked. I can lease a new corolla or sentra now at around $40/month less than my Leaf, but their mileage is so much worse they would cost more.

EatsShootsandLeafs said:

Yep I just checked. I can lease a new corolla or sentra now at around $40/month less than my Leaf, but their mileage is so much worse they would cost more.

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On purchase, these cars probably cost much less though, especially if you owe less than $7500 of federal tax and don't qualify for the full tax credit.

gaswalla said:

It's not really this simple. One needs to know the battery life and the replacement cost to make a rational decision. Unlike modern ICE cars that have the obvious upfront cost, maintenance, and gas expenses with a lifespan or 100-200k miles, the LEAF appears to have a finite battery life: the time at which the battery needs to be replaced will depend on the individual's needs. Thus, there is the upfront cost, minimal costs from electricity, near zero maintenance, AND the battery cost:

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I think you only need to consider the replacement costs of battery modules that fail while you intend to keep driving your LEAF.

I don't figure out the total cost of ownership of an ICE vehicle by adding in the replacement cost of the engine just before I haul it off to the junk yard.

Luft said:

gaswalla said:

It's not really this simple. One needs to know the battery life and the replacement cost to make a rational decision. Unlike modern ICE cars that have the obvious upfront cost, maintenance, and gas expenses with a lifespan or 100-200k miles, the LEAF appears to have a finite battery life: the time at which the battery needs to be replaced will depend on the individual's needs. Thus, there is the upfront cost, minimal costs from electricity, near zero maintenance, AND the battery cost:

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I think you only need to consider the replacement costs of battery modules that fail while you intend to keep driving your LEAF.

I don't figure out the total cost of ownership of an ICE vehicle by adding in the replacement cost of the engine just before I haul it off to the junk yard.

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TCO with an ICE vehicle should include mileage specific maintenance items like timing belt replacements, catalytic converter replacements, and other periodic maintenance. For EV TCO, periodic battery maintenance cost and interval is really an unknown at this point, but for modeling purposes, I would suggest a 60 ~ 100K mile interval and a $3K net cost. So for a 2011 car with average utilization, forward pricing assumptions would fall in the 2016 time frame.

OrientExpress said:

Luft said:

gaswalla said:

It's not really this simple. One needs to know the battery life and the replacement cost to make a rational decision. Unlike modern ICE cars that have the obvious upfront cost, maintenance, and gas expenses with a lifespan or 100-200k miles, the LEAF appears to have a finite battery life: the time at which the battery needs to be replaced will depend on the individual's needs. Thus, there is the upfront cost, minimal costs from electricity, near zero maintenance, AND the battery cost:

Click to expand...

I think you only need to consider the replacement costs of battery modules that fail while you intend to keep driving your LEAF.

I don't figure out the total cost of ownership of an ICE vehicle by adding in the replacement cost of the engine just before I haul it off to the junk yard.

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TCO with an ICE vehicle should include mileage specific maintenance items like timing belt replacements, catalytic converter replacements, and other periodic maintenance. For EV TCO, periodic battery maintenance cost and interval is really an unknown at this point, but for modeling purposes, I would suggest a 60 ~ 100K mile interval and a $3K net cost. So for a 2011 car with average utilization, forward pricing assumptions would fall in the 2016 time frame.

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I agree that to figure out the TCO you need to include all expenses related to owning the car. As you stated for an iCE vehicle it would include many things that do not apply to EVs.

I also agree that the periodic battery maintenance cost (if required) is unknown at this time. It depends on the price of replacement modules and the life of our existing modules. If we plan on keeping our EV for five years we may not need to replace any modules. We just don't know at this point how long the battery pack will last.

Any guesses as to how many modules (if any) would need to be replaced and how much they may cost at the time they may be needed are just guesses at this point.

WetEV said:

...I suspect that there are some in Seattle area that might get to 240,000 miles. Depending on exactly where, what the garage is like, driving style, how flat the commute, charging and SOC, etc. Again, that's 20 years.

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Substantially warmer over here, but I'm planning on making it 20 yr with around 160,000 mi (unless we get some DCQC on I-90, I-82 over here on the dry side). Primarily charge 2-3 hr L1 to 40-50% SOC daily. I'll definitely see more calendar losses than mileage losses. Temp is the big unknown. We had a "cool" summer with only a few days in the 100's this year. Much of the summer I bicycle and will keep the car in the shaded garage and parking outside at night for the cooling. I'll let you know in 2022.

Reddy

madbrain said:

And with the 5 decimals PG&E uses everywhere, it takes them E no less than 16 pages of computations to figure out the total of my electric bill every month.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1eSSO_7gwqeZVdHRER2bEtqcGs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, anyone who is consistently hitting high tiers will figure out pretty quickly they need to get solar.
I got solar within 2 months of moving into my large home 2 years ago. But it was sized properly to reduce me to the low tiers, but not 0. But adding the EV charging now would put me back into the high tiers... So EV charging means adding more solar again. Hopefully by monday I will have my 12 additional PV panels up in addition to the existing 28. But they are not free.

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Any chance you can put up an example copy of your absolutely nutty electric bill/statement again from PG&E? The above link is now 404.

cwerdna said:

madbrain said:

And with the 5 decimals PG&E uses everywhere, it takes them E no less than 16 pages of computations to figure out the total of my electric bill every month.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1eSSO_7gwqeZVdHRER2bEtqcGs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, anyone who is consistently hitting high tiers will figure out pretty quickly they need to get solar.
I got solar within 2 months of moving into my large home 2 years ago. But it was sized properly to reduce me to the low tiers, but not 0. But adding the EV charging now would put me back into the high tiers... So EV charging means adding more solar again. Hopefully by monday I will have my 12 additional PV panels up in addition to the existing 28. But they are not free.

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Any chance you can put up an example copy of your absolutely nutty electric bill/statement again from PG&E? The above link is now 404.

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It's probably 404 because this thread is 2 years old.

I haven't had my Leaf very long. I haven't measured my power usage from charging the Leaf. In the short time I have had mine, I have looked at my daily electrical power usage. My charging usage is un-noticeable as it is washed out by the differences in my house heat pump usage in cold or hot weather. I currently pay a flat rate of about .085 per KWH.

In rough terms though - I figure I will have payed about $23 K net for a 2015 SV with LED & QC option and a L2 charge station with all the rebates, tax incentives, dealer adds, taxes, registration, etc. I live in a hot climate, so I am already budgeting for a battery replacement @ $ 6 K in 5 -6 years. That puts me at $29 K for a small car with limited range. With gas and maintenance costs, I will probably be a little under what a similar size ICE car would cost but not a lot.

It's a nice little car that is fun to drive, so I don't really regret my decision to buy one, but I don't know that I would say that it is an inexpensive car to buy.