Cost and time of 220v vs 110?

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
DaveinOlyWA said:
ok 31 watts more than i had remembered but still not much.
Click to expand...
Yes, the lost watts by themselves are not that significant of a difference, but as a percentage of what makes it into your pack, it's VERY significant! 76% vs 91%!

-Phil
 
On adding circuits to a garage: if it is a detached garage, you will be required to have a sub-panel (small circuit breaker panel) in the garage. The National Electrical Code requires that out buildings be fed with a single circuit only.

Dryer outlets in the USA are (almost?) always 240V with plenty of amperage to run an EVSE. An electric dryer will always take more current than the converted EVSE brick.
 
DoxyLover said:
On adding circuits to a garage: if it is a detached garage, you will be required to have a sub-panel (small circuit breaker panel) in the garage. The National Electrical Code requires that out buildings be fed with a single circuit only.
Click to expand...
According to 250.32(A), exception; this is not required for a single circuit, and the multiwire branch circuit is considered one circuit. So in other words, running one UF romex to a detached garage with 2 hots (black/red) and one neutral with ground is perfectly acceptable w/o needing a subpanel. However current code requires a disconnecting means for the circuits located in the garage. (Though probably not when his structure was built.)

If you wanted to be compliant, The disconnecting means is allowed to be a double-pole snap-action switch, which is an easy addition.

-Phil
 
EvaLeaf said:
Our garage has both types of plugs -- regular 110 as well as a "large" plug that our dryer plugs into. We do not want to pay for any electricians fees or permanent upgrades to the house / garage itself as it is a rental, so we are considering going either trickle charge all the way or ESVE upgrade, which would be mobile.
Click to expand...
First off, we have not had 110/220v in the US for the better part of a century. It's an old holdover. The proper nomenclature is 120/240v for single-phase residential power.

EvaLeaf said:
1) Does the larger dryer plug mean we have 220V? Or would we have to confirm this in some way by hiring an electrician?
Click to expand...
Yes you most likely have 240v at a minimum of 30a. To confirm, take a close look at the plug and determine it's type. It will be (usually) marked on the face, or you can just match it to a picture online. If you can't figure it out, snap a picture and post it here or email it to me.

EvaLeaf said:
2) Is there a circumstance in which we would not be able to charge the Leaf using either 110v or 220v? E.g. our house is too old and it knocks out the power? Or would 110 always work, and 220 would be an issue? Again, we do not own the home so don't have a lot of history on the state of the electrical system.
Click to expand...
If you use the dryer outlet, and there is nothing wrong with it, you should have no problems charging on 240v. The 120v outlets are another question. Since charging on 120v requires a continuous 12A (1.5kW) load, you may have trouble with old outlets (heat/burning) or if they are on shared circuits, you could experience tripping of your breaker when the circuit gets overloaded. (or worse!) The dryer outlet will be loaded way less than a dryer would load it, so it's unlikely even a worn outlet or wiring would cause any problems.

EvaLeaf said:
3) I have a daily commute of 30 mi roundtrip (San Mateo / Mountain View, CA) with chargers available at work for a relatively pricey fee ($1/hr). We occasionally go up to the city (SF) on the weekends for a 40-50mi round trip. Should we consider 220 charging at home to be a deal breaker for us? We also have the option of our 2nd car & the train but if we get the Leaf I think we'd like to be able to use it :)
Click to expand...
You can probably "get by" with only 120v, but there will definitely be occasions it limits your utility. As it is, the existing maximum of 3.3kW on 240v is limiting for many scenarios. This was the impetus for developing my 6.7kW upgrade. (Full charge in about 3 hours instead of 7)

-Phil
 
Unfortunately this will never stop. We have most all of this listed in our FAQ as well, but people still would rather hammer out a post/email than RTFM.

:roll:

-Phil
 
Thanks to all who replied! Appreciate the links as well...I had already checked out the evseupgrade FAQ but really wanted to more get confirmation that the dryer outlet would be A-OK and was having a harder time digging up that specific info.

Will check it out tonight when I get home to see which one of the plug types mine is.

This is my first ever new car (have been driving a 1995 Camry since college) and on top of that an EV so want to make sure I do all my due diligence.
 
EvaLeaf said:
Thanks to all who replied! Appreciate the links as well...I had already checked out the evseupgrade FAQ but really wanted to more get confirmation that the dryer outlet would be A-OK and was having a harder time digging up that specific info.

Will check it out tonight when I get home to see which one of the plug types mine is.

This is my first ever new car (have been driving a 1995 Camry since college) and on top of that an EV so want to make sure I do all my due diligence.
Click to expand...

that dryer outlet is more than ok. you only need a 20 amp 240 volts.
 
EvaLeaf said:
Our garage has both types of plugs -- regular 110 as well as a "large" plug that our dryer plugs into. We do not want to pay for any electricians fees or permanent upgrades to the house / garage itself as it is a rental, so we are considering going either trickle charge all the way or ESVE upgrade, which would be mobile.
Click to expand...
One thing no one seems to have picked up on is that you are actually using the 240v outlet for your dryer, right? It can be a pain, not to mention hard on the outlet, to swap plugs on a daily basis. I think those outlets are designed with the assumption that you will plug in once, and leave the plug there for months or years. You could install a switch, but that would involve electrician fees and a permanent change to the garage. If it is your own dryer, there is another possibility. Living where you do there is a high probability that there is a gas line terminating behind the dryer. You could get a gas dryer (and save some money on monthly drying expenses), thus freeing the outlet for the EVSEupgrade.

EvaLeaf said:
I have a daily commute of 30 mi roundtrip (San Mateo / Mountain View, CA) with chargers available at work for a relatively pricey fee ($1/hr). We occasionally go up to the city (SF) on the weekends for a 40-50mi round trip. Should we consider 220 charging at home to be a deal breaker for us?
Click to expand...
No, lack of 240v charging should not be a deal breaker. Your daily commute might require 6-10 hours of charging per night at 120v, depending on how and where you drive. The chances are you can leave it plugged in longer than that, building up a bank of extra hours for weekend excursions. And, assuming you have the SL Quick Charge port, there are stations in your area (Palo Alto and Belmont) that can give you a quick boost if you need a little extra.

(There is also an efficiency penalty for charging at 120v rather than 240v, but even with PG&E's high rates, and assuming you hit the expensive tiers, that penalty shouldn't be more than $10/month for your driving pattern.)

Ray
 
Not that I advise it, but one of our crafty customers simply installed a NEMA L6-20 outlet on the front of his dryer in his rental property. I thought this was quite clever, as it solves the issue of both needing an adapter and needing to move the dryer out of the way in order to swap plugs with his EVSE.

Of course, if you are qualified, you could also buy or make a 3-way adapter to save having to modify your dryer. A male 10-30 (or whatever your dryer has) and it's corresponding female, along with the L6-20. There is no inherent safety problem, if done properly, but if you attempt to operate the dryer while charging, you'll likely trip your breaker.

-Phil
 
So, I took some iphone photos and realized I can only upload them w/a URL, so let's do this the old fashioned way...

The plug looks like this:

L
\ /

So closest to the NEMA "10-30" in davewill's helpful picture. There is also some printing on the plug itself that reads "30A 125V/250V~" Feeling pretty confident at this point.

It was only slightly annoying to unplug the dryer cable...its behind the dryer but accessible (and I think we could scoot the dryer over a bit to make it easier). We probably do laundry once or twice a week, so it wouldn't necessarily be the end of the world to plug / unplug, and we often use a drying rack anyways. I definitely don't think I'd be qualified (in the "binder" sense of the word) to make the 3-way adapter, but I wouldn't rule out purchasing one for a fair price. I definitely would not run both at the same time though, we occasionally get flickering when our dryer is on and don't want to risk anything! Guessing it would also be a no-no to charge at 120v while drying?

We don't own the dryer, it came with the rental of the house, and it is brand new so doesn't make a ton of sense to replace it. I also don't want to make any permanent modifications to the property as its a rental and requires landlord approval under our lease.

Also, I heard a rumor that my employer may be putting in some fast chargers at our Menlo Park office...that would be pretty tempting! I could schedule my meetings there are the end of the day and pick up some charge on the way home :)
 
EvaLeaf said:
So, I took some iphone photos and realized I can only upload them w/a URL, so let's do this the old fashioned way...

The plug looks like this:

L
\ /

So closest to the NEMA "10-30" in davewill's helpful picture. There is also some printing on the plug itself that reads "30A 125V/250V~" Feeling pretty confident at this point.

It was only slightly annoying to unplug the dryer cable...its behind the dryer but accessible (and I think we could scoot the dryer over a bit to make it easier). We probably do laundry once or twice a week, so it wouldn't necessarily be the end of the world to plug / unplug, and we often use a drying rack anyways. I definitely don't think I'd be qualified (in the "binder" sense of the word) to make the 3-way adapter, but I wouldn't rule out purchasing one for a fair price. I definitely would not run both at the same time though, we occasionally get flickering when our dryer is on and don't want to risk anything! Guessing it would also be a no-no to charge at 120v while drying?

We don't own the dryer, it came with the rental of the house, and it is brand new so doesn't make a ton of sense to replace it. I also don't want to make any permanent modifications to the property as its a rental and requires landlord approval under our lease.

Also, I heard a rumor that my employer may be putting in some fast chargers at our Menlo Park office...that would be pretty tempting! I could schedule my meetings there are the end of the day and pick up some charge on the way home :)
Click to expand...

the flickering is a concern. i am also a renter and i modified stuff but did so, so it could be easily reversed. i was lucky in that my house is newer and set up for central A/C which we do not have so tons of room in the panel plus there was already an unused 240 v. 20 a plug in my garage (my dryer is in ultility room inside the house so would have been a major challenge to use that plug!)
 
EvaLeaf said:
So, I took some iphone photos and realized I can only upload them w/a URL, so let's do this the old fashioned way...

The plug looks like this:

L
\ /

So closest to the NEMA "10-30" in davewill's helpful picture. There is also some printing on the plug itself that reads "30A 125V/250V~" Feeling pretty confident at this point.

It was only slightly annoying to unplug the dryer cable...its behind the dryer but accessible (and I think we could scoot the dryer over a bit to make it easier). We probably do laundry once or twice a week, so it wouldn't necessarily be the end of the world to plug / unplug, and we often use a drying rack anyways. I definitely don't think I'd be qualified (in the "binder" sense of the word) to make the 3-way adapter, but I wouldn't rule out purchasing one for a fair price. ...
Click to expand...
It's almost certainly a 10-30. One thing to keep in mind is that you're going to need an adapter anyway in order to use this socket. The EVSE upgrade has an L6-20 plug on it, so plan on making/buying an adapter for L6-20R to 10-30P (R=Receptacle, P=Plug)...and whatever you do, don't pass up buying the 5-15 (regular 120v plug) adapter from Phil when you order your upgrade.

These guys (http://www.evseadapters.com/products.php) sell adapters and they say they can do special requests, so you can ask them if they can make the "Y" adapter for you, or can just buy the 10-30 adapter and swap plugs.
 
i would add a box with L6-20 to the dryer plug in a surface mount. run conduit so its not right at the dryer and leave both the dryer and EVSE plugged in all the time. it ranks probably a 2 or 3 on the DIY difficulty scale and would cost you about $20
 
Ingineer said:
DoxyLover said:
On adding circuits to a garage: if it is a detached garage, you will be required to have a sub-panel (small circuit breaker panel) in the garage. The National Electrical Code requires that out buildings be fed with a single circuit only.
Click to expand...
According to 250.32(A), exception; this is not required for a single circuit, and the multiwire branch circuit is considered one circuit. So in other words, running one UF romex to a detached garage with 2 hots (black/red) and one neutral with ground is perfectly acceptable w/o needing a subpanel. However current code requires a disconnecting means for the circuits located in the garage. (Though probably not when his structure was built.)

If you wanted to be compliant, The disconnecting means is allowed to be a double-pole snap-action switch, which is an easy addition.

-Phil
Click to expand...
I may have not been clear, but I was talking about adding a 240V circuit to a detached garage that was already wired for 120V. Yes, if you have a MWBC, you can use a Quick-220 to get your 240V, but you cannot just run a separate 240V circuit to the garage (AFAIK).
 
Ingineer said:
If anyone wants to know any highly accurate information about the Leaf's systems, I might have already recorded it, feel free to ask!
Click to expand...
Here's a good one: It often comes up that there is some benefit to charging on L1 vs L2 in terms of battery longevity with the theory that L1 generates less heat in the battery pack than L2. It's a myth that never dies.

Anyway - do you have any data related to battery pack temperature when charging from say LBW to 100% and time along with ambient temperatures on L1 and/or L2?
 
DoxyLover said:
I may have not been clear, but I was talking about adding a 240V circuit to a detached garage that was already wired for 120V. Yes, if you have a MWBC, you can use a Quick-220 to get your 240V, but you cannot just run a separate 240V circuit to the garage (AFAIK).
Click to expand...
If you have a MWBC, you can make sure the two 120 breakers have their handles tied, and then add in a 240v L6-20 on the Black/Red (L1/L2). The only requirement with present NEC (2011) is the need for a disconnect which can be achieved with a 20a DP snap-switch.

-Phil
 
drees said:
Here's a good one: It often comes up that there is some benefit to charging on L1 vs L2 in terms of battery longevity with the theory that L1 generates less heat in the battery pack than L2. It's a myth that never dies.

Anyway - do you have any data related to battery pack temperature when charging from say LBW to 100% and time along with ambient temperatures on L1 and/or L2?
Click to expand...
The 2 rates are so close that the difference isn't really observable. Keep in mind, while the L1 is a lower rate, it's doing it for longer, which seems to tie with the L2 rates because they finish a lot faster.

Now if it was really cold/hot out, these numbers may change, but here in NorCal, I don't notice any difference. Even when I charge at 6.7kW!

The battery has a certain resistance, and it's got a LOT of thermal mass with little effect from the outside air, so it's pretty linear up to the point where the chemistry non-linearity starts to affect it. (Which probably doesn't start until around 1/2C rates)

-Phil
 

Similar threads

C
A thread for people happy with their Leaf
2 3 4
Replies
79
Views
5K
denwood
D
B
Is Level II home charger included?
2
Replies
30
Views
3K
cornbinder89
C
Jnovoseljr
My EV Battery Life and Leaf observations.
Replies
10
Views
2K
GerryAZ
G
knightmb
QC Charging Study - Nissan vs EA vs EVgo vs Chargepoint
2
Replies
35
Views
17K
Chek
C
L
Charge kWh usage calculator/tracker
Replies
9
Views
8K
alozzy
A

Latest posts

Back
Top