Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

TEG said:

mwalsh said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

we also have a phenomena where machines thrive on constant use and lightly used machines seen to age faster.

Click to expand...

Li-Ion batteries too maybe. I bought two Toshiba laptops for my office in April. One is never turned off, and charged as needed (the one I use personally), and the other is a loaner that I seldom allow use of and is charged maybe once a month. The battery on the laptop I use is showing 1% degradation. The seldom used battery is showing 7% degradation.

Click to expand...

I used to work in a lab which had many laptops. They came brand new with factory Li-Ion batteries, and were basically plugged in and left running 24x7, never getting taken out and run down. Within a couple of years most were popping up alarms saying that the battery was no longer healthy and needed to be replaced. That experience alone has convinced me that leaving Li-Ion at 100% for extended periods of time is not a good practice.

Click to expand...

Yep. Might be a good idea to take out the batteries or replace them w/Lenovo laptops w/a power management applet (and setting it for longer battery longevity). See my experiences at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9857&p=225439&hilit=lenovo#p225439" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. My over 5 year old T61p is still on its original battery and I can still run it for >3 hours on battery.

cwerdna said:

I used to work in a lab which had many laptops. They came brand new with factory Li-Ion batteries, and were basically plugged in and left running 24x7, never getting taken out and run down. Within a couple of years most were popping up alarms saying that the battery was no longer healthy and needed to be replaced. That experience alone has convinced me that leaving Li-Ion at 100% for extended periods of time is not a good practice.

Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong, bro. I run my laptop on battery power almost all the time, except when it's charging. I don't leave it plugged in all the time.

As I've mentioned fully charging a lithium battery to 100% and leaving it there for extended periods exposes the electrolyte solvents to higher voltages for longer periods, which speeds their degradation. This is chemistry, the electrolyte solvents are more stable in the middle of the voltage range. One of the big areas of research is more stable electrolyte chemistry at higher voltages, which would allow batteries with greater energy density.
Now, the other aspect is that most lithium batteries do need to spend some time at higher voltages to allow cell balancing, so the key is to have enough time charging at a high SOC to keep the battery balanced but no more than that. Without access to cell voltage data it's hard to say exactly what that is but I'd guess a 100% charge once or twice a month might be a good idea.

Several things stood out:

- Nissan's sophistic (in my view) use of 7500 miles per year, rather than 12000 or 12500 (whatever the original amount was) to judge Arizona degradation on 400 users at 76% at 5 years (I believe it was). How about mentioning what the 5-year degradation projection was for Arizona users who went the original amount of 12000 or 12500? My guess is that Mr. Palmer wanted to avoid discussing that.... (and how about a bit of recognition that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy where the number of miles driven per year will decline with premature battery degradation?)

- The anti-customer refusal to fix the consent reminder. How about firing Nissan's lawyers and hiring better ones who will find a way to strike a compromise such as the other automakers do?

I guess a few other things as well.

i have been at a wedding in NYC and spent the last 5 days without access to this board.
i dont see any news from the Lurking Nissan Man or evchels on this thread or a look through the active topics page.

did we ever get a battery replacement price, the naming of the consulting members or other info?
is it in one or two threads somewhere?

as amazing as the NYC experience was, I am happy to be back in SoCal, with power and it aint 45 degrees outside.
--

and what a kick to park at LAX lot 5 alongside so many LEAFs. i did not know about or use the charging section, and saw there a string of Volts and LEAFs.
the $270 parking bill was free.

thankyouOB said:

i have been at a wedding in NYC and spent the last 5 days without access to this board.
i dont see any news from the Lurking Nissan Man or evchels on this thread or a look through the active topics page.

did we ever get a battery replacement price, the naming of the consulting members or other info?
is it in one or two threads somewhere?

as amazing as the NYC experience was, I am happy to be back in SoCal, with power and it aint 45 degrees outside.
--

and what a kick to park at LAX lot 5 alongside so many LEAFs. i did not know about or use the charging section, and saw there a string of Volts and LEAFs.
the $270 parking bill was free.

Click to expand...

hope your trip went well and VERY glad to see you were able to make it back...wondering if the trip was unexpectedly extended?

other than that; i can with high confidence state that if battery pricing had been announced that a search of active topics to find it would have been a very short one.

extended?
for sure. original flight was cancelled. The wedding was Sunday and i didnt get out until Thursday.
it was a very interesting experience to be trapped there. I wouldnt have missed it, but i was really glad to get out when i did. it was getting chaotic.

thankyouOB said:

extended?
for sure. original flight was cancelled. The wedding was Sunday and i didnt get out until Thursday.
it was a very interesting experience to be trapped there. I wouldnt have missed it, but i was really glad to get out when i did. it was getting chaotic.

Click to expand...

well sounds like you will "recover" and ya, i would not have minded being there for the experience of it all. but HUGE difference between visiting there and having to live there. hope your sister is coping ok.

thankyouOB said:

i dont see any news from the Lurking Nissan Man or evchels on this thread or a look through the active topics page.

Click to expand...

Welcome back, I hope things on the East Coast will be back to normal soon. That said, you might want to watch the latest episode of Transport Evolved. I haven't seen too many other announcements.




Click to open

surfingslovak said:

thankyouOB said:

i dont see any news from the Lurking Nissan Man or evchels on this thread or a look through the active topics page.

Click to expand...

Welcome back, you might want to watch the latest episode of Transport Evolved:

Click to expand...

Hmm...not sure I'd recommend that! (Or at least, cover the screen/your ears when that American girl gets going.. )

There's been no actual announcement about the members of the adv group yet- I'd been holding off til the group was finalized, and there are a few who aren't. Mainly international folks, but am awaiting responses from a couple US people who one way or another seem to be affected by Sandy. There are a few nominated members from this forum on board though, so I'm excited to "out" them: DaveinOlyWa, RegGuheert, and TonyWilliams. They've all kindly been quiet to allow me to get things together (to wit, Dave in just his last couple posts here!), but given the unforeseen delays, I think it's just as good to get the conversations we can going in the meantime.

I will distribute all of the names and bios soon, hopefully in the next week. Meanwhile, I'm working with Nissan to organize the first kickoff meeting, but won't wait for that to happen before we start to establish at least regional priorities and communication plans and preferences. And happy to have threads here for adv board discussions, or however else would be useful to this broader community. And of course, private messages and direct feedback are always welcome.

Meanwhile, no news on battery pack pricing, though internal conversations about this topic and potential general remedies continue, and I've been trying to intervene on individual cases. On this too, I should have more info in the next week or so- and based on conversations so far, am hopeful.

evchels said:

There are a few nominated members from this forum on board though, so I'm excited to "out" them: DaveinOlyWa, RegGuheert, and TonyWilliams.

Click to expand...

All excellent choices! Very good to hear this news on top of the 1500+ Leafs sold/leased in October.

thanks for the update.

evchels said:

Meanwhile, no news on battery pack pricing, though internal conversations about this topic and potential general remedies continue, and I've been trying to intervene on individual cases. On this too, I should have more info in the next week or so- and based on conversations so far, am hopeful.

Click to expand...

Chelsea,
Did you read this thread from TaylorSFGuy "Nissan says I cant buy a new battery pack".

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10386" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It would seem obvious that Nissan needs to listen to anyone that has driven a Leaf over 55k miles in such a short period of time. I think his perspective is unique among us as a Leaf mileage leader.

Thank you for your time.
KJD

KJD said:

It would seem obvious that Nissan needs to listen to anyone that has driven a Leaf over 55k miles in such a short period of time. I think his perspective is unique among us as a Leaf mileage leader.

Thank you for your time.
KJD

Click to expand...

I really don't think it matters how fast you get there. Obviously he's going to get there faster than most of us, but we will all eventually reach 60k-75k miles where is looks like many drivers will start seeing the car as too limiting. They have to have a path forward to install new packs to "refresh" the car and give it all of its range back. Heck a buyer of a used Leaf with 70k miles might want to have one installed to make it "new" again. He buys it cheap due to the limited capacity remaining and then installs new pack and its like new again.

evchels said:

surfingslovak said:

Welcome back, you might want to watch the latest episode of Transport Evolved:

Click to expand...

Hmm...not sure I'd recommend that! (Or at least, cover the screen/your ears when that American girl gets going.. ) ...

Click to expand...

I don't know about that, I thought what you said made a lot of sense. When you mentioned that inductive charging was a "solution in search of a problem" I was reminded that I had used the same description many months ago at plugincars.com (before my personal boycott of the site since last May). And some of your comments about the QC formats were amusing, if a bit indelicate. I agree with the gist of your argument about the misplaced focus on massive charge station networks, especially since I muddle along ok in the complete absence of any public charge stations at all.

I will say that your webcam wasn't too flattering though...

I fully expect that simultaneous with the end of my 4 year lease at around 55K miles, I will also hit the end of the car having a usable range for my needs at a 4 to 5 tick capacity loss. I also expect that by then, I'll need to charge to 100 percent each day to make my drive. I would not want to be the one who buys my car off lease...

I've updated my losses (currently about 20%) to Nissan CS as they have occurred but so far all they are willing to do is quote chapter and verse from the "no capacity warranty" portion of the manual... I have a Tesla on order and expect it may be the replacement for my Leaf (the Toyota RAV4 EV doesn't interest me and is too expensive for what it is IMHO, and their handling of the federal lease tax credit is also very annoying and somewhat sleazy)...

palmermd said:

I really don't think it matters how fast you get there. Obviously he's going to get there faster than most of us, but we will all eventually reach 60k-75k miles where is looks like many drivers will start seeing the car as too limiting.

Click to expand...

Chelsea: Let Nissan know that they are losing customers because they still have not released their 2013 LEAFs with the faster 6.6kw charger. After my nephew borrowed my LEAF for extended test drives, he finally purchased the Toyota RAV4 EV. He just got tired of waiting for the new LEAF to come out. And, with the 10kw charger, the RAV4 looked good by comparison.

dgpcolorado said:

evchels said:

surfingslovak said:

Welcome back, you might want to watch the latest episode of Transport Evolved:

Click to expand...

Hmm...not sure I'd recommend that! (Or at least, cover the screen/your ears when that American girl gets going.. ) ...

Click to expand...

I don't know about that, I thought what you said made a lot of sense. When you mentioned that inductive charging was a "solution in search of a problem" I was reminded that I had used the same description many months ago at plugincars.com (before my personal boycott of the site since last May). And some of your comments about the QC formats were amusing, if a bit indelicate. I agree with the gist of your argument about the misplaced focus on massive charge station networks, especially since I muddle along ok in the complete absence of any public charge stations at all.

Click to expand...

Thanks- and yes, that is one of a couple regular podcasts that walks a line somewhere between candid and indelicate, and whose organizers/audience encourage me toward the latter. But especially given the Wired article and general design of Tesla's Supercharger, it was a softball hard not to hit. Sometimes it's really obvious that I basically grew up in the auto industry!

Curious about the PIC boycott too- sounds like I missed some drama there (though have certainly seen some recently!) Maybe a better PM convo...

dgpcolorado said:

I will say that your webcam wasn't too flattering though...

Click to expand...

Hah, yeah, I know- though can't blame the webcam (just the usual native mac cam). I keep trying to convince Nikki that "face for radio" can apply to podcasts too, but have yet to win that battle...

Phoenix said:

Chelsea: Let Nissan know that they are losing customers because they still have not released their 2013 LEAFs with the faster 6.6kw charger. After my nephew borrowed my LEAF for extended test drives, he finally purchased the Toyota RAV4 EV. He just got tired of waiting for the new LEAF to come out. And, with the 10kw charger, the RAV4 looked good by comparison.

Click to expand...

I understand. We've been bugging them about the 3.3 vs 6.6 kW issue since the original charging spec was established- none of the 1990's cars charged so slowly, and it's a huge, yet-to-be justified mistake by GM, Nissan, Mits, etc. But unfortunately, I'm not sure how likely it is that we'll see US-built LEAFs before the end of Q1 2013 in general...

However, I don't see many non-fleet (if that) takers of the full 10kW capability of the RAV either. Those folks will mostly choose 6.6kW, and won't benefit any further by most public charging stations either.

evchels said:

[...

Click to expand...

I don't know about that, I thought what you said made a lot of sense. When you mentioned that inductive charging was a "solution in search of a problem" I was reminded that I had used the same description many months ago at plugincars.com (before my personal boycott of the site since last May). And some of your comments about the QC formats were amusing, if a bit indelicate. I agree with the gist of your argument about the misplaced focus on massive charge station networks, especially since I muddle along ok in the complete absence of any public charge stations at all. [/quote]
Thanks- and yes, that is one of a couple regular podcasts that walks a line somewhere between candid and indelicate, and whose organizers/audience encourage me toward the latter. But especially given the Wired article and general design of Tesla's Supercharger, it was a softball hard not to hit. Sometimes it's really obvious that I basically grew up in the auto industry!

Curious about the PIC boycott too- sounds like I missed some drama there (though have certainly seen some recently!) Maybe a better PM convo...

dgpcolorado said:

I will say that your webcam wasn't too flattering though...

Click to expand...

Hah, yeah, I know- though can't blame the webcam (just the usual native mac cam). I keep trying to convince Nikki that "face for radio" can apply to podcasts too, but have yet to win that battle...[/quote]

how should i understand the boldfaced part?
U lost me.

(my question is in underline; I screwed up the edit.)