ELROY
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 023406
Location: Camarillo, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:35 pm

DoxyLover wrote:
ELROY wrote:Just tried it again. Nothing for about 30 seconds, then the climate meter ramps up to about 3.5kw. So just delayed. I think it is the climate control logic and not the KW meter. As the "other" KW gauge reacts immediately to turning on/off the headlights.
Interesting.

First of all, be aware that the "other" gauge is artificial: it just notes that things like the headlights and wipers are on and off and indicates a fixed value for each. It doesn't actually measure anything. The powertrain and climate control gauges are actual measurements of power draw.

There may be delay on the climate control gauge, but not more than a few seconds. The climate control system seems to have a mind of its own sometimes, but I've never seen it draw nothing for 30 seconds before starting to draw power. Not sure what's going on here.
Ah, that makes sense then for the "other" gauge. I will keep monitoring the situation with the heater gauge.

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planet4ever
Posts: 4674
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Delivery Date: 02 May 2011
Leaf Number: 1537
Location: Morgan Hill, CA, south of San Jose

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:04 pm

DoxyLover wrote:
ELROY wrote:Just tried it again. Nothing for about 30 seconds, then the climate meter ramps up to about 3.5kw. So just delayed. I think it is the climate control logic and not the KW meter.
There may be delay on the climate control gauge, but not more than a few seconds. The climate control system seems to have a mind of its own sometimes, but I've never seen it draw nothing for 30 seconds before starting to draw power. Not sure what's going on here.
I agree with DoxyLover that your 30 second delay before drawing power sounds like something is wrong, at least if the cabin is cold. But there can be some really long delays in the system. The temperature you dial in does not tell the heating coil how hard to work. Instead it just tells a computer what temperature you want. The computer checks the cabin temperature, and it decides when to activate the heating coil. But that's only the start of it. The coil doesn't heat the cabin, or even the air being blown into the cabin. Somewhat incredibly, it heats a reservoir of coolant (water/antifreeze). That eventually gets warm enough to begin heating air being blown through a traditional heat exchanger, just like those in ICE cars, except for them the coolant is heated by the engine. In Auto mode the computer is also controlling the blower and air path, so air isn't blown through the heat exchanger until the computer thinks it is warm enough.

There is also the fact that the kWh reported never jumps, but gradually moves up and down. AFAIK the computer doesn't control the heating coil that way, but just turns it on and off. If that is true, the kWh being reported must be time-averaged.

And finally, just because you are sure to be confused about this, as I think we all were, that AC button does not turn a refrigeration system on and off. Apparently, to the Japanese, "air conditioning" means ... duh ... conditioning the air. That could include heating or cooling or dehumidifying.

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

DoxyLover
Posts: 517
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Leaf Number: 9214
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:01 pm

planet4ever wrote:There is also the fact that the kWh reported never jumps, but gradually moves up and down. AFAIK the computer doesn't control the heating coil that way, but just turns it on and off. If that is true, the kWh being reported must be time-averaged.
Though I don't know for sure, I assume that the power to the heater is moderated by Pulse-Width Modulation (PWM) where it is switched on and off quickly with varying ratios of on and off time. This is how LEDs are digitally dimmed.
2011 Brilliant Silver Leaf SL
Reserved, quoted and ordered July 11, 2011
Delivered October 16, 2011 (Na. Plug-In Day)

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vrwl
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:39 pm

ELROY wrote:Trying to get 5mi/kwhr would be very difficult. With the cruise control set at 35mph-45mph, it was usually below 5.
As a newbie owner as well, I can tell you that you'll get better with your miles/kWh the more you drive your car. When I first got my car, I was averaging 3.5 miles/kWh. Now I'm getting high 4's and many times low 5's on my daily trips. But it takes awhile to "perfect" your driving skills (slower takeoffs from lights and stop signs, coasting to red lights, etc) to get better efficiency. Give it some time, you'll get better at it.
Vicki
2011 Silver SL-Mfg 8/11-Purch 6/12
34000 miles

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Nubo
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Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:19 pm

ELROY wrote:I noticed my steering wheel is often either baking hot, or doesn't work at all when I am driving at times. Is there some kind of a timer in which it only works for a few minutes or something? Does anyone else have this problem of the steering heater not working at times when you want it to, even though the switch light stays on?
This is apparently a "feature". I'm sure there's a Japanese engineer somewhere who has an explanation. I'd love to hear it. :roll:
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

ELROY
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm
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Leaf Number: 023406
Location: Camarillo, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:03 pm

vrwl wrote:
ELROY wrote:Trying to get 5mi/kwhr would be very difficult. With the cruise control set at 35mph-45mph, it was usually below 5.
As a newbie owner as well, I can tell you that you'll get better with your miles/kWh the more you drive your car. When I first got my car, I was averaging 3.5 miles/kWh. Now I'm getting high 4's and many times low 5's on my daily trips. But it takes awhile to "perfect" your driving skills (slower takeoffs from lights and stop signs, coasting to red lights, etc) to get better efficiency. Give it some time, you'll get better at it.
I have never reset the Nav Screen Display economy history readout. So it is sitting right at 4.0 m/KWh right now. I know how to drive fairly economically ( I got 80 miles on my first long trip, 100% charge to --- --- ---). However, in everday driving, its still shocking to see how fast the bars are dropping. For example, from driving this morning to work, and round town. Here are the stats:

12.1 miles of driving took 3 full bars. (10 bars down to 7 bars)
Range dropped from 88 miles to 60 miles.
Charge time remaining went from 3.30hr to 9:30hrs

Just seems ridiculously fast to get only 4 miles per bar with an average of
3.6 m/KWh on the cluster readout. (just reset it this morning before leaving on this test run).

So: It went down 28 miles in range with only 12.1 miles actual, and an increase of 6hrs in the charge time remaining column. While at 3.6m/KWhr efficiency...does this seem plausible? Any other numbers I can derive from this?

Is this what others are seeing? No A/C, No heater, 30-50mph driving mostly.
Last edited by ELROY on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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surfingslovak
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Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:19 pm

ELROY wrote:12.1 miles of driving took 3 full bars. (10 bars down to 7 bars)
Range dropped from 88 miles to 61 miles.

Just seems ridiculously fast to get only 4 miles per bar with an average of
3.6 m/KWh on the cluster readout. (just reset it this morning before leaving on this test run).
The energy economy seems pretty low. 12.1 / 3.6 = 3.36 kWh. Since each bar corresponds to approximately 1.5 kWh in a new car, this energy use corresponds to roughly 2.24 bars. The gauge is not very granular however, and it could easily be indicated as three bars.Image

ELROY
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm
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Leaf Number: 023406
Location: Camarillo, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:23 pm

surfingslovak wrote:
ELROY wrote:12.1 miles of driving took 3 full bars. (10 bars down to 7 bars)
Range dropped from 88 miles to 61 miles.

Just seems ridiculously fast to get only 4 miles per bar with an average of
3.6 m/KWh on the cluster readout. (just reset it this morning before leaving on this test run).
The energy economy seems pretty low. 12.1 / 3.6 = 3.36 kWh. Since each bar corresponds to approximately 1.5 kWh in a new car, this energy use corresponds to roughly 2.24 bars. The gauge is not very granular however, and it could easily be indicated as three bars.Image
Yes, perhaps with the 3.30hr charge time remaining, it was barely at 10 bars to start?
I will continue to drive it in town, monitor the efficiency and range/bar correlation to see if we can get some more resolution in these readings. It just crazy how I can get 4 miles per bar in normal driving, and on my last bar the other night I acheived 13 miles. But then again, I am now tracking the efficiency gauge...and at 3.6m/KWh, is really doesn't seem like the bars should be dropping this fast.
Last edited by ELROY on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

essaunders
Posts: 378
Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 7:20 am
Delivery Date: 20 Jan 2012
Location: southern NH

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:35 pm

I drive in NH: It is often cold. Yesterday, My 16 miles total commute took ~4 bars. During the summer I can sometimes squeak out 2 bars for the same drive.



I see the issues as:
relatively small battery to start with plus a significant part of that 'hidden' at the low end.
Cold weather causes BOTH more energy consumption and lower capacity.
Cold weather makes one more cautious (I don't mind a walk/wait in 80F but 20F would be unpleasant)


Anyone who tries to 'stretch' the range of an EV better be in a climate were it isn't hot (permanent capacity loss) and isn't cold (seasonal capacity loss).
Last edited by essaunders on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ELROY
Posts: 292
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 023406
Location: Camarillo, CA

Re: IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:39 pm

essaunders wrote:I drive in NH: It is often cold. My 16 miles total commute took ~4 bars. During the summer I can sometimes squeak out 2 bars for the same drive.



I see the issues as:
relatively small battery to start with plus a significant part of that 'hidden' at the low end.
Cold weather causes BOTH more energy consumption and lower capacity.
Cold weather makes one more cautious (I don't mind a walk/wait in 80F but 20F would be unpleasant)


Anyone who tries to 'stretch' the range of an EV better be in a climate were it isn't hot (permanent capacity loss) and isn't cold (seasonal capacity loss).
Luckily, we have some of the most mild climates around here. Temp this morning during testing so far is 63F

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