IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

ELROY said:

So all in all, if it takes 20hrs to charge (23 indicated), it will be about $10 in electricity to have traveled 66miles. At $4.20 gallon for fuel, this would be about 2.38 gallons of fuel, or about the same costs as a gas car achieving 27.73mpg. Not remarkable at all.

Once I get a metered level II charger at .13 cents /kwhr instead of my current .32 cents kwhr, then is will only be about $3.90 to charge the battery instead of $10. The resulting economy would be equivalent to a 71mpg trip, which I could live with.

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If you charge for 20 hours on Level 1, pulling 1.44kW (120V x 12amps) from the wall, your total would be 28.8kWh x 0.32 = $9.22. (Close to the $10 you are assuming.)

However, with a new battery's usable 21kWh, and assuming 86% efficiency on L2, it would cost you $3.17 to fill-up, ( (21 / .86) * 0.13 ), rather than $3.90.

The largest variable, however, is your assumed 66 miles from full-to-empty. You should be able to at least match the 73 miles EPA rating or better. But even given the conservative 73 miles (which would be 3.48miles/kWh) ... I get:

$3.17 spent, or ($3.17 / $4.20) = 0.755 gallons for 73 miles ==> 97mpg ! Not bad. (The car is rated at 99MPGe.)

ELROY said:

Trying to get 5mi/kwhr would be very difficult. With the cruise control set at 35mph-45mph, it was usually below 5.

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Something is wrong. Check your tire pressures (try cold psi at 40). Also make sure HVAC is completely off (the heater "steals" a lot of energy).

LEAFer said:

(the heater "steals" a lot of energy).

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His heater reportedly doesn't work

ELROY said:

So it sounds like going to the -- -- -- reading isn't all that critical, except for Nissans definition of it being detrimental to battery health. Do you feel that going to the 0 range is not to critical for battery life? From what I understand, its much less of a factor than always charging to 100% because of the associated heat buildup, etc. Kind of funny how in the interviews, the reps said its fine to quick charge once a day. I am beginning to wonder what goes on in the battery consultation during the service visits?? Do I get reprimanded for letting the battery deplete to 0 miles? How much of this is tracked for evaluation on the service visits?

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Good point and a whole separate topic, which I will try to respond to later. We don't have definitive answers to everything, but I wouldn't worry about the annual battery check. That much is sure, and based on the collective experience here, it's a farce. Thanks to Phil, we know what battery data is being collected behind the scenes, and I would not be concerned one iota about going to low SOC. In fact it's something the NO-GAS-EV hotline recommended I did when I complained about lack of range, and not having access to all of the advertised 24 kWh of battery capacity. Yes, it's detrimental to battery life to go that low, but unless you drove it to turtle and left it that way for days and weeks, nobody will say anything.

surfingslovak said:

LEAFer said:

(the heater "steals" a lot of energy).

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His heater reportedly doesn't work

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Ooops ... I missed that Hmmm. So maybe a broken heater steals more than a working heater ? :lol:

LEAFer said:

So maybe a broken heater steals more than a working heater ? :lol:

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That would make for an interesting discussion! :lol:

surfingslovak said:

LEAFer said:

So maybe a broken heater steals more than a working heater ? :lol:

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That would make for an interesting discussion! :lol:

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Actually very interesting thing going on with the heater. I followed the advice from this forum on watching the climate controlk kw draw meter.

Set the temp to 90F, ran the climate control, cold air. Kw graph was staying low. So I continued to run it trying to defrost the inside moisture of my windshield with the blowing cool ambient air. The suddenly I see the Kw graph start rampiing up. I think it went anywhere from 2-4kw. So I knew something was going on. Then the air started to warm up. So I watched the kw meter surge up/down. I lowered the temp and the gauge would go up, and seemed to do its own thing...is this kw monitor perhaps very very delayed to what I am doing with the temp, climate control, etc? When it was drawing 2-4kw, I thought I would turn on the ac compressor and see the effect, and didn't see a direct, immediate corrolation. Perhaps having to do with the very delayed kw meter readout? Is this normal?
I will play with it some more tonight.

Yes the cheaper electricity will make a huge difference. On the other hand, I looked at my AMEX bill which details gas purchases. I really only spend $160/month or so on fuel. So not matter what, with thousands for a charger, and the new car payment, etc....its still a more expensive proposition than just driving my already paid off Honda I was using...but perhaps a more environmentally friendly alternative driving the LEAF. Not withstanding the cost of electricity, it is remarkable that you can drive 60-80 miles on the same energy content of about 2/3 a gallon of fuel. (our 24KWh battery back vs 1 gallon of 33KWh? gas) .

Good info here on the forum though!

ELROY said:

Perhaps having to do with the very delayed kw meter readout? Is this normal?

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We are just learning about the heater ourselves since we purchased the LEAF in March and it hasn't been very cold until now. I would say this is normal. The heater seems to increase its power level very gradually.

RegGuheert said:

ELROY said:

Perhaps having to do with the very delayed kw meter readout? Is this normal?

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We are just learning about the heater ourselves since we purchased the LEAF in March and it hasn't been very cold until now. I would say this is normal. The heater seems to increase its power level very gradually.

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Just tried it again. Nothing for about 30 seconds, then the climate meter ramps up to about 3.5kw. So just delayed. I think it is the climate control logic and not the KW meter. As the "other" KW gauge reacts immediately to turning on/off the headlights.

On a side note, I know there is supposed to be that electronic whine sound which supposedly eminates from the R/F fenderwell area to alert pedestrians.

What is the sound that also comes on right around 2mph and sounds like a breathing tube or something. (like those dental suction tubes) It sounds like it comes from the left front area. It is actually the loudest sound I hear when driving at very slow speeds. Normal?? The way it suddenly goes on/off, I don't think it is a fan/motor. Kind of like the way it sounds when your brake pads are grinding metal to metal, but not quite that metallic sounding.

ELROY said:

What is the sound that also comes on right around 2mph and sounds like a breathing tube or something. (like those dental suction tubes) It sounds like it comes from the left front area. It is actually the loudest sound I hear when driving at very slow speeds. Normal?? The way it suddenly goes on/off, I don't think it is a fan/motor. Kind of like the way it sounds when your brake pads are grinding metal to metal, but not quite that metallic sounding.

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That's the "noise maker." Yes, comes on around 2mph and off around 15-20 mph or so. Edit: Here's more info:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10481&p=239856&hilit=noise+maker#p239802
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9761&hilit=VSP
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3296&hilit=VSP
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8875&hilit=VSP

Reddy

Reddy said:

ELROY said:

What is the sound that also comes on right around 2mph and sounds like a breathing tube or something. (like those dental suction tubes) It sounds like it comes from the left front area. It is actually the loudest sound I hear when driving at very slow speeds. Normal?? The way it suddenly goes on/off, I don't think it is a fan/motor. Kind of like the way it sounds when your brake pads are grinding metal to metal, but not quite that metallic sounding.

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That's the "noise maker." Yes, comes on around 2mph and off around 15-20 mph or so.

Reddy

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How many external "generated" sounds are there?

1. The back up chime
2. The electronic whining noise from the R/F fenderwell speaker?
3. The breathing tube type noise?

Both 2 & 3 do seem to come on around the same time, but not always exactly the same time.

EDIT: Just saw your links on the sound generator....will check them out!

ELROY said:

Just tried it again. Nothing for about 30 seconds, then the climate meter ramps up to about 3.5kw. So just delayed. I think it is the climate control logic and not the KW meter. As the "other" KW gauge reacts immediately to turning on/off the headlights.

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Interesting.

First of all, be aware that the "other" gauge is artificial: it just notes that things like the headlights and wipers are on and off and indicates a fixed value for each. It doesn't actually measure anything. The powertrain and climate control gauges are actual measurements of power draw.

There may be delay on the climate control gauge, but not more than a few seconds. The climate control system seems to have a mind of its own sometimes, but I've never seen it draw nothing for 30 seconds before starting to draw power. Not sure what's going on here.

DoxyLover said:

ELROY said:

Just tried it again. Nothing for about 30 seconds, then the climate meter ramps up to about 3.5kw. So just delayed. I think it is the climate control logic and not the KW meter. As the "other" KW gauge reacts immediately to turning on/off the headlights.

Click to expand...

Interesting.

First of all, be aware that the "other" gauge is artificial: it just notes that things like the headlights and wipers are on and off and indicates a fixed value for each. It doesn't actually measure anything. The powertrain and climate control gauges are actual measurements of power draw.

There may be delay on the climate control gauge, but not more than a few seconds. The climate control system seems to have a mind of its own sometimes, but I've never seen it draw nothing for 30 seconds before starting to draw power. Not sure what's going on here.

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Ah, that makes sense then for the "other" gauge. I will keep monitoring the situation with the heater gauge.

DoxyLover said:

ELROY said:

Just tried it again. Nothing for about 30 seconds, then the climate meter ramps up to about 3.5kw. So just delayed. I think it is the climate control logic and not the KW meter.

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There may be delay on the climate control gauge, but not more than a few seconds. The climate control system seems to have a mind of its own sometimes, but I've never seen it draw nothing for 30 seconds before starting to draw power. Not sure what's going on here.

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I agree with DoxyLover that your 30 second delay before drawing power sounds like something is wrong, at least if the cabin is cold. But there can be some really long delays in the system. The temperature you dial in does not tell the heating coil how hard to work. Instead it just tells a computer what temperature you want. The computer checks the cabin temperature, and it decides when to activate the heating coil. But that's only the start of it. The coil doesn't heat the cabin, or even the air being blown into the cabin. Somewhat incredibly, it heats a reservoir of coolant (water/antifreeze). That eventually gets warm enough to begin heating air being blown through a traditional heat exchanger, just like those in ICE cars, except for them the coolant is heated by the engine. In Auto mode the computer is also controlling the blower and air path, so air isn't blown through the heat exchanger until the computer thinks it is warm enough.

There is also the fact that the kWh reported never jumps, but gradually moves up and down. AFAIK the computer doesn't control the heating coil that way, but just turns it on and off. If that is true, the kWh being reported must be time-averaged.

And finally, just because you are sure to be confused about this, as I think we all were, that AC button does not turn a refrigeration system on and off. Apparently, to the Japanese, "air conditioning" means ... duh ... conditioning the air. That could include heating or cooling or dehumidifying.

Ray

planet4ever said:

There is also the fact that the kWh reported never jumps, but gradually moves up and down. AFAIK the computer doesn't control the heating coil that way, but just turns it on and off. If that is true, the kWh being reported must be time-averaged.

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Though I don't know for sure, I assume that the power to the heater is moderated by Pulse-Width Modulation (PWM) where it is switched on and off quickly with varying ratios of on and off time. This is how LEDs are digitally dimmed.

ELROY said:

Trying to get 5mi/kwhr would be very difficult. With the cruise control set at 35mph-45mph, it was usually below 5.

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As a newbie owner as well, I can tell you that you'll get better with your miles/kWh the more you drive your car. When I first got my car, I was averaging 3.5 miles/kWh. Now I'm getting high 4's and many times low 5's on my daily trips. But it takes awhile to "perfect" your driving skills (slower takeoffs from lights and stop signs, coasting to red lights, etc) to get better efficiency. Give it some time, you'll get better at it.

ELROY said:

I noticed my steering wheel is often either baking hot, or doesn't work at all when I am driving at times. Is there some kind of a timer in which it only works for a few minutes or something? Does anyone else have this problem of the steering heater not working at times when you want it to, even though the switch light stays on?

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This is apparently a "feature". I'm sure there's a Japanese engineer somewhere who has an explanation. I'd love to hear it. :roll:

vrwl said:

ELROY said:

Trying to get 5mi/kwhr would be very difficult. With the cruise control set at 35mph-45mph, it was usually below 5.

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As a newbie owner as well, I can tell you that you'll get better with your miles/kWh the more you drive your car. When I first got my car, I was averaging 3.5 miles/kWh. Now I'm getting high 4's and many times low 5's on my daily trips. But it takes awhile to "perfect" your driving skills (slower takeoffs from lights and stop signs, coasting to red lights, etc) to get better efficiency. Give it some time, you'll get better at it.

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I have never reset the Nav Screen Display economy history readout. So it is sitting right at 4.0 m/KWh right now. I know how to drive fairly economically ( I got 80 miles on my first long trip, 100% charge to --- --- ---). However, in everday driving, its still shocking to see how fast the bars are dropping. For example, from driving this morning to work, and round town. Here are the stats:

12.1 miles of driving took 3 full bars. (10 bars down to 7 bars)
Range dropped from 88 miles to 60 miles.
Charge time remaining went from 3.30hr to 9:30hrs

Just seems ridiculously fast to get only 4 miles per bar with an average of
3.6 m/KWh on the cluster readout. (just reset it this morning before leaving on this test run).

So: It went down 28 miles in range with only 12.1 miles actual, and an increase of 6hrs in the charge time remaining column. While at 3.6m/KWhr efficiency...does this seem plausible? Any other numbers I can derive from this?

Is this what others are seeing? No A/C, No heater, 30-50mph driving mostly.

ELROY said:

12.1 miles of driving took 3 full bars. (10 bars down to 7 bars)
Range dropped from 88 miles to 61 miles.

Just seems ridiculously fast to get only 4 miles per bar with an average of
3.6 m/KWh on the cluster readout. (just reset it this morning before leaving on this test run).

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The energy economy seems pretty low. 12.1 / 3.6 = 3.36 kWh. Since each bar corresponds to approximately 1.5 kWh in a new car, this energy use corresponds to roughly 2.24 bars. The gauge is not very granular however, and it could easily be indicated as three bars.

surfingslovak said:

ELROY said:

12.1 miles of driving took 3 full bars. (10 bars down to 7 bars)
Range dropped from 88 miles to 61 miles.

Just seems ridiculously fast to get only 4 miles per bar with an average of
3.6 m/KWh on the cluster readout. (just reset it this morning before leaving on this test run).

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The energy economy seems pretty low. 12.1 / 3.6 = 3.36 kWh. Since each bar corresponds to approximately 1.5 kWh in a new car, this energy use corresponds to roughly 2.24 bars. The gauge is not very granular however, and it could easily be indicated as three bars.

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Yes, perhaps with the 3.30hr charge time remaining, it was barely at 10 bars to start?
I will continue to drive it in town, monitor the efficiency and range/bar correlation to see if we can get some more resolution in these readings. It just crazy how I can get 4 miles per bar in normal driving, and on my last bar the other night I acheived 13 miles. But then again, I am now tracking the efficiency gauge...and at 3.6m/KWh, is really doesn't seem like the bars should be dropping this fast.

I drive in NH: It is often cold. Yesterday, My 16 miles total commute took ~4 bars. During the summer I can sometimes squeak out 2 bars for the same drive.



I see the issues as:
relatively small battery to start with plus a significant part of that 'hidden' at the low end.
Cold weather causes BOTH more energy consumption and lower capacity.
Cold weather makes one more cautious (I don't mind a walk/wait in 80F but 20F would be unpleasant)


Anyone who tries to 'stretch' the range of an EV better be in a climate were it isn't hot (permanent capacity loss) and isn't cold (seasonal capacity loss).

essaunders said:

I drive in NH: It is often cold. My 16 miles total commute took ~4 bars. During the summer I can sometimes squeak out 2 bars for the same drive.



I see the issues as:
relatively small battery to start with plus a significant part of that 'hidden' at the low end.
Cold weather causes BOTH more energy consumption and lower capacity.
Cold weather makes one more cautious (I don't mind a walk/wait in 80F but 20F would be unpleasant)


Anyone who tries to 'stretch' the range of an EV better be in a climate were it isn't hot (permanent capacity loss) and isn't cold (seasonal capacity loss).

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Luckily, we have some of the most mild climates around here. Temp this morning during testing so far is 63F