Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

The only LEAF sales you hear about now-a-day is due to cheap 2 year lease deals. I assume that the fire sale lease deals represent a loss of money to Nissan and are not going to be sustainable month to month. So when this fire sale dries out, so will sales figures. People are only leasing with intent to dump at the end of the lease, not to keep. So that doesn't reflect confidence in the company or the car anymore. Definitely don't hear about anyone dumb enough to buy anymore, even with hefty discounts.

Nissan has already managed to self-stamp a big LOSER sign on its own forehead. The longer they keep quiet and not come up with a battery remedy solution, the more this LOSER stamp turns into an irreversible tattoo.

At this point, not too many people care anymore, because this horse has already been beaten to death. Nissan's continued inaction has already spoken for itself. Benefit of the doubt is long gone.

By now, people are saying "Let's move on and let Nissan hang themselves." It's time to consider other car brands. Enough said.

I went to the local Toyta dealer for a plug in Prius. Just to see one, and was told they would never have one here in GA to sell. Even if I special ordered it.

Volusiano said:

The only LEAF sales you hear about now-a-day is due to cheap 2 year lease deals. I assume that the fire sale lease deals represent a loss of money to Nissan and are not going to be sustainable month to month. So when this fire sale dries out, so will sales figures. People are only leasing with intent to dump at the end of the lease, not to keep. So that doesn't reflect confidence in the company or the car anymore. Definitely don't hear about anyone dumb enough to buy anymore, even with hefty discounts.

Nissan has already managed to self-stamp a big LOSER sign on its own forehead. The longer they keep quiet and not come up with a battery remedy solution, the more this LOSER stamp turns into an irreversible tattoo.

At this point, not too many people care anymore, because this horse has already been beaten to death. Nissan's continued inaction has already spoken for itself.

By now, many people are already taking the attitude of "'nuff said, let's move on and let Nissan hang themselves." It's now time to move on to other car brands.

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not sure i can agree with this.

** you say this like Nissan is the only one offering great lease options. other than Tesla and Toyota, EVERYONE is doing it.

** i think the average consumer overestimates their driving need especially if they are a 2 car household. driving a limited range vehicle should open their eyes to reality

** I also think consumers are really unaware of how cheap an EV really is to operate.

i think Nissan is building a great future market. they only need to get the right vehicle into the right price point. keep in mind; a returned EV on a two year lease with a new battery pack is still a valuable asset. one that can be re leased several times. i think this is going to be a new arena of the automobile industry that will be controlled by a new arm of Nissan America where they solely deal in refurbished plug ins.... but then again; i dream a lot

I highly doubt that Nissan will freshen the battery packs on the returned leases.

I mean, they say they are perfectly fine, so why would they? If you don't believe me, just ask Nissan.

Philip

DaveinOlyWA said:

Volusiano said:

The only LEAF sales you hear about now-a-day is due to cheap 2 year lease deals. I assume that the fire sale lease deals represent a loss of money to Nissan and are not going to be sustainable month to month. So when this fire sale dries out, so will sales figures. People are only leasing with intent to dump at the end of the lease, not to keep. So that doesn't reflect confidence in the company or the car anymore. Definitely don't hear about anyone dumb enough to buy anymore, even with hefty discounts.

Nissan has already managed to self-stamp a big LOSER sign on its own forehead. The longer they keep quiet and not come up with a battery remedy solution, the more this LOSER stamp turns into an irreversible tattoo.

At this point, not too many people care anymore, because this horse has already been beaten to death. Nissan's continued inaction has already spoken for itself.

By now, many people are already taking the attitude of "'nuff said, let's move on and let Nissan hang themselves." It's now time to move on to other car brands.

Click to expand...

not sure i can agree with this.

** you say this like Nissan is the only one offering great lease options. other than Tesla and Toyota, EVERYONE is doing it.

** i think the average consumer overestimates their driving need especially if they are a 2 car household. driving a limited range vehicle should open their eyes to reality

** I also think consumers are really unaware of how cheap an EV really is to operate.

i think Nissan is building a great future market. they only need to get the right vehicle into the right price point. keep in mind; a returned EV on a two year lease with a new battery pack is still a valuable asset. one that can be re leased several times. i think this is going to be a new arena of the automobile industry that will be controlled by a new arm of Nissan America where they solely deal in refurbished plug ins.... but then again; i dream a lot

Click to expand...

The points you made above are inclined toward arguing for the EV movement, which is not the point I'm trying to make. My point is about Nissan in particular, not about the EV movement.

I'm not saying that the EV movement is doomed. I'm only saying that Nissan's future in the EV market is doomed. Why?

1. They failed to respond adequately to address the battery issue.
2. They made the wrong decision to not have battery TMS and still continue to stick with this wrong decision.
3. People are now turning away from Nissan and Nissan is losing EV market share, despite having a head-start a year ahead of competition. This is evident in their pitiful sales figure until they had a fire sale last month.
4. Most importantly, they're losing customers' trust because they've managed to show that they don't have customers' back. This by far is the worst damaging thing they've managed to do all by themselves. Even if they come up with a technical solution a few years from now, everyone will remember how they had failed to have their customers' back and nobody wants to buy from that kind of a company anymore.

philipscoggins said:

I highly doubt that Nissan will freshen the battery packs on the returned leases.

I mean, they say they are perfectly fine, so why would they? If you don't believe me, just ask Nissan.

Philip

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today they wont because they dont have the packs but i dont think that anyone can really say what the EV landscape will be like in 2 years. lets go back to 2 years ago. no one predicted what is going on right now. its all new. we are not traveling any roads here because there is none. we have to build them and we are still not sure where we are going but there will be several paths to follow eventually. hopefully we won t have to wait too long

Volusiano said:

The points you made above are inclined toward arguing for the EV movement, which is not the point I'm trying to make. My point is about Nissan in particular, not about the EV movement.

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take Nissan out and all of a sudden the "EV movement" becomes a butt shift in your easy chair.

**edited** sorry comment came out wrong. what i am saying is there would be no movement if Nissan was not in it...Tesla you say?? that is like saying the new movement is "buying your own yacht instead of taking a Disney Cruise"

Your points about EV being cheap to operate and range anxiety is over-rated, refresh with new battery pack on lease returns, etc, is all about EV specific positives. I agree with all this.

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its over rated to us because we have been living it for almost 2 years but you would be surprised at how little of this most people understand

I'm not saying that the EV movement is doomed. I'm only saying that Nissan's future in the EV market is doomed. Why?

1. They failed to respond adequately to address the battery issue.

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no question on that. hope that there will be a chapter 2 on this issue. buying back LEAFs might be ok for the owners but to me it was a surrender but also a decision based on time constraints. some people had been dealing with the issue for months and although i dont personally think most would have been stranded, its still a huge weight off the mind to get it resolved. the stress level was tremendous and my heart goes out to people who had to live this day after day.

2. They made the wrong decision to not have battery TMS and still continue to stick with this wrong decision.

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we know the reason they made the decision was money. but its not wrong for everyone. i dont need it and we are still trying to determine how many others dont need it either. really wish we knew exactly how much it would have cost to put it on. should it be an option for future MY's? that would be an obvious yes...

3. Customers are now turning away from Nissan and Nissan is starting to lose EV market share, despite having a head-start against other companies. This is evident in their pitiful sales figure against their own projection, until they had a fire sale last month.

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easy to have a head start when running a one man race. curious as to where we would be right now had Nissan not put out the LEAF? after all, it would be crazy to think Nissan would maintain market share. as others come in, it will be diluted.

4. Most importantly, they're losing customers' trust that they are willing to have customers' back and will do things right by customers. This by far is the worst damaging thing they've managed to do all by themselves. Even if they come up with a technical solution a few years from now, everyone will remember how they had failed to have their customers' back and won't want to come back to Nissan again.

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that is so wrong. people quickly forget bad events. there is no doubt that a bunch of people here; the early adopters who bought LEAFs may never come back to Nissan and they will tell everyone they know about their bad experiences but this by no means signifies the death of Nissan in the EV game. auto manufacturers have been screwing up for decades but they always seem to come back from their mistakes because they have to.

the automobile market is simply too big so Nissan will have plenty of room like everyone else will. keep in mind; there is a lot of resentment all over town with nearly EVERY EV manufacturer. there is no angel out there. not one...

what yet remains to be seen is what Nissan does with their mis-steps on the LEAF. this is no doubt a learning experience for everyone on both sides of the dollar here.

but i can assure you; they come out with a winner, all will be forgiven.

Volusiano said:

...3. Customers are now turning away from Nissan and Nissan is starting to lose EV market share, despite having a head-start against other companies. This is evident in their pitiful sales figure against their own projection, until they had a fire sale last month...

Click to expand...

Really? So what do we have for the other EVs?

October sales numbers:

Tesla Model S: 290, some trouble ramping up production
FFE: 112, a half-hearted effort if ever there was one
Mitsubishi "i": 30, they never seem to get serious about ramping up production and sales
Rav 4EV: 47, CARB compliance car limited to a few hundred per year in very limited areas
Honda FitEV: 16, CARB compliance car limited to a few hundred per year in very limited areas, lease only
BMW ActiveE: test cars only

That's losing market share? I always assumed that other EVs were going to come to market eventually. But the other EVs have a long way to go before they have significant market share compared to the LEAF. And it remains to be seen what will happen once Tennessee production starts.

While I agree that Nissan hasn't handled the hot climate problem well and wish they would do better, I do want to cut them some slack for coming up with the first mass market EV. The LEAF is a car I very much enjoy driving and it seems to work fine for many owners/lessees thus far.

Which of the other EVs do you see supplanting the LEAF in the next couple of years? The extraordinarily expensive Model S? The FFE?

dgpcolorado said:

Volusiano said:

...3. Customers are now turning away from Nissan and Nissan is starting to lose EV market share, despite having a head-start against other companies. This is evident in their pitiful sales figure against their own projection, until they had a fire sale last month...

Click to expand...

Really? So what do we have for the other EVs?

October sales numbers:

Tesla Model S: 290, some trouble ramping up production
FFE: 112, a half-hearted effort if ever there was one
Mitsubishi "i": 30, they never seem to get serious about ramping up production and sales
Rav 4EV: 47, CARB compliance car limited to a few hundred per year in very limited areas
Honda FitEV: 16, CARB compliance car limited to a few hundred per year in very limited areas, lease only
BMW ActiveE: test cars only

That's losing market share? I always assumed that other EVs were going to come to market eventually. But the other EVs have a long way to go before they have significant market share compared to the LEAF. And it remains to be seen what will happen once Tennessee production starts.

While I agree that Nissan hasn't handled the hot climate problem well and wish they would do better, I do want to cut them some slack for coming up with the first mass market EV. The LEAF is a car I very much enjoy driving and it seems to work fine for many owners/lessees thus far.

Which of the other EVs do you see supplanting the LEAF in the next couple of years? The extraordinarily expensive Model S? The FFE?

Click to expand...

You're only looking at the narrow EV market. Don't forget to look at the PHEV market with the Volt, and the hybrid market with the Prius. I'm sure people turned off by Nissan don't just consider another EV only, when other semi-EV options are available like the Volt and the Prius. I'm sure there are a lot of people who consider the LEAF, learn about the battery issue and especially the way Nissan handles it, get turned off and decide to go the Volt route or Prius route for now because the other EV options are not viable right now.

Nobody is arguing that the Leaf is a not car most people enjoy driving and it works fine for many owners/leasees thus far. The point is that in light of Nissan's mishandling of the battery issue, potential owners and even current owners/leasees will prefer to go with a different option if viable options are available to them. Currently it's the Volt and Prius. But as more viable options are available, who do you think people will pick? Given 2 cars with similar pricing and options, one by a company with an already proven bad reputation for not backing up their customer, and one by a company whose reputation is unknown in terms of customer loyalty, who do think people are going to chose? I'd pick the car by the company with the unknown reputation, because it can't be worse than picking the one with an already known bad reputation.

Volusiano said:

dgpcolorado said:

Volusiano said:

...3. Customers are now turning away from Nissan and Nissan is starting to lose EV market share, despite having a head-start against other companies. This is evident in their pitiful sales figure against their own projection, until they had a fire sale last month...

Click to expand...

Really? So what do we have for the other EVs?

October sales numbers:

Tesla Model S: 290, some trouble ramping up production
FFE: 112, a half-hearted effort if ever there was one
Mitsubishi "i": 30, they never seem to get serious about ramping up production and sales
Rav 4EV: 47, CARB compliance car limited to a few hundred per year in very limited areas
Honda FitEV: 16, CARB compliance car limited to a few hundred per year in very limited areas, lease only
BMW ActiveE: test cars only

That's losing market share? I always assumed that other EVs were going to come to market eventually. But the other EVs have a long way to go before they have significant market share compared to the LEAF. And it remains to be seen what will happen once Tennessee production starts.

While I agree that Nissan hasn't handled the hot climate problem well and wish they would do better, I do want to cut them some slack for coming up with the first mass market EV. The LEAF is a car I very much enjoy driving and it seems to work fine for many owners/lessees thus far.

Which of the other EVs do you see supplanting the LEAF in the next couple of years? The extraordinarily expensive Model S? The FFE?

Click to expand...

You're only looking at the narrow EV market. Don't forget to look at the PHEV market with the Volt, and the hybrid market with the Prius. I'm sure people turned off by Nissan don't just consider another EV only, while other semi-EV options are available like the Volt and the Prius. I'm sure there are a lot of people who consider the LEAF, learn about the battery issue and especially the way Nissan handles it, get turned off and decide to go the Volt route or Prius route for now because the other EV options are not viable right now.

Click to expand...

we should look at EREVs because they are part of the "12 step" program of oil addiction recovery but they lack the main ingredient of range anxiety...but then again as Volt Owners will attest there is still gas anxiety http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2012/10/gas-anxiety.html

where even a small taste of EVness has poisoned the gas well. so ya, it is a way to introduce the benefits of EV's to the masses but too many people will settle for that if someone does not provide other options. EVs have limitations but no roadblocks other than our own minds...

Volusiano said:

dgpcolorado said:

Volusiano said:

...3. Customers are now turning away from Nissan and Nissan is starting to lose EV market share, despite having a head-start against other companies. This is evident in their pitiful sales figure against their own projection, until they had a fire sale last month...

Click to expand...

Really? So what do we have for the other EVs?

October sales numbers:

Tesla Model S: 290, some trouble ramping up production
FFE: 112, a half-hearted effort if ever there was one
Mitsubishi "i": 30, they never seem to get serious about ramping up production and sales
Rav 4EV: 47, CARB compliance car limited to a few hundred per year in very limited areas
Honda FitEV: 16, CARB compliance car limited to a few hundred per year in very limited areas, lease only
BMW ActiveE: test cars only

That's losing market share? I always assumed that other EVs were going to come to market eventually. But the other EVs have a long way to go before they have significant market share compared to the LEAF. And it remains to be seen what will happen once Tennessee production starts.

While I agree that Nissan hasn't handled the hot climate problem well and wish they would do better, I do want to cut them some slack for coming up with the first mass market EV. The LEAF is a car I very much enjoy driving and it seems to work fine for many owners/lessees thus far.

Which of the other EVs do you see supplanting the LEAF in the next couple of years? The extraordinarily expensive Model S? The FFE?

Click to expand...

You're only looking at the narrow EV market. Don't forget to look at the PHEV market with the Volt, and the hybrid market with the Prius. I'm sure people turned off by Nissan don't just consider another EV only, when other semi-EV options are available like the Volt and the Prius. I'm sure there are a lot of people who consider the LEAF, learn about the battery issue and especially the way Nissan handles it, get turned off and decide to go the Volt route or Prius route for now because the other EV options are not viable right now.

Nobody is arguing that the Leaf is a not car most people enjoy driving and it works fine for many owners/leasees thus far. The point is that in light of Nissan's mishandling of the battery issue, potential owners and even current owners/leasees will prefer to go with a different option if viable options are available to them. Currently it's the Volt and Prius. But as more viable options are available, who do you think people will pick? Given 2 cars with similar pricing and options, one by a company with an already proven bad reputation for not backing up their customer, and one by a company whose reputation is unknown in terms of customer loyalty, who do think people are going to chose? I'd pick the car by the company with the unknown reputation, because it can't be worse than picking the one with an already known bad reputation.

Click to expand...

+1. Ford is very serious about hybrids and PHEVs (cf. Fusion/C-Max), and if the FFE takes off as a result of the Leaf issues, will be happy to ramp up production.

Toyota remains big on hybrids, is moving towards PHEVs, has the only sub-$50k 100 mile BEV extant even if it's limited in both production volume and sales area, and has a generally excellent rep with customers. Honda has what IMO is the best combination of features/performance in any sub-$40k BEV, and even if it is a compliance car currently, it's a very good one. They also have what has been one of the top-selling cars for decades coming out in a PHEV version, and a customer service rep equal to Toyota's.

Added: That Honda, at least, feels that FCEVs are a better option than BEVs is true, and given the current glut of NG due to fracking they may well be right economically (leaving aside longer-term issues related to how we produce the hydrogen), but nevertheless they've put BEVs out there that are viable performance-wise, if no more affordable to the masses than the Leaf.

And GM is obviously in this in a big way, and has a powertrain that, while expensive, can be adopted painlessly by the masses and allow them to do the majority of their driving on the battery. The Spark is certainly a compliance car, but if they can bring it in much under $30k there may well be people who will opt for it. And unlike Nissan, GM has stood firmly behind their early adopter customers (who woulda thunk it?).

So, there are lots of options to the Leaf now: If the Leaf hadn't been on sale the early adopters would have bought themselves i's or Codas, and put up with their lower level of refinement.
It takes decades for a car company to live down a rep for bad treatment of its customers; just ask the people who've said that despite the Volt getting the highest ratings ever recorded for reliability and customer satisfaction, they wouldn't even consider one owing to past bad experiences with GM products and service.

Nissan's experience isn't going to be any different, and the damage to their reputation is entirely self-inflicted.

GRA said:

Ford is very serious about hybrids and PHEVs (cf. Fusion/C-Max), and if the FFE takes off as a result of the Leaf issues, will be happy to ramp up production.

Click to expand...

Don't discount the fact that Ford has it's own share of technical issues with the FFE. They may be minor ones, or they may not, we don't know yet. But the ones we've seen exhibit themselves are every bit as disconcerting than any we've seen on the LEAF to date. In fact, I'd say the LEAF is STILL the best engineered of the current crop of EVs from the major players thus far.

mwalsh said:

GRA said:

Ford is very serious about hybrids and PHEVs (cf. Fusion/C-Max), and if the FFE takes off as a result of the Leaf issues, will be happy to ramp up production.

Click to expand...

Don't discount the fact that Ford has it's own share of technical issues with the FFE. They may be minor ones, or they may not, we don't know yet. But the ones we've seen exhibit themselves are every bit as disconcerting than any we've seen on the LEAF to date. In fact, I'd say the LEAF is STILL the best engineered of the current crop of EVs from the major players thus far.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the Stop Safely Now warning is obviously an issue, although Ford seems to be doing a far better job of responding to it (and their customers) than Nissan has. At the moment it strikes me as more of a software teething problem than a major battery design/customer communication error, which is how I see the Leaf's battery issue. Ford's recent CR rating of 27th out of 28 in reliability is also worrying, although a lot of that seems to be related to the MyFordTouch/Sync system, which (given the choice) I'd prefer not to have.

I am going to walk-back my statement a little bit, and point out that I was very impressed with the RAV4EV, even though my seat-time in it has been very limited. Plus we have to see what comes of it's engineering in both the short and long term (I have a feeling Tony W. will be helpful with that). And it has that Musky smell about it, which I don't care for very much. And it doesn't compare with the LEAF when you factor in price. And it may well only be a CARB play. But, otherwise, it's a great entry into the market.

As much as I would love to have the improved range and performance of the RAV4EV, I am glad Nissan did what it did to keep the LEAF costs down...

TEG said:

As much as I would love to have the improved range and performance of the RAV4EV, I am glad Nissan did what it did to keep the LEAF costs down...

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+1 on that. Nissan is reputedly going a step further by dumbing down the current LEAF for a lower priced entry for 2013 MY. this is a good thing. I personally like the features my LEAF has but if push comes to shove, i could do without some of the bling. the Homelink, NAV, solar panel :? , center display, etc.

only thing i really want to keep is the 5 seats, the current range and quick charge

For the new lower end model, I wonder if they will still have Blutooth hands free audio and USB memory stick MP3 playback? Those sorts of features are becoming commonplace even on entry level cars.

TEG said:

For the new lower end model, I wonder if they will still have Blutooth hands free audio and USB memory stick MP3 playback? Those sorts of features are becoming commonplace even on entry level cars.

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i live in a handsfree state so guessing Bluetooth for phone will remain. the other stuff like USB interface to the stereo is a pretty cheap addition is it not?

DaveinOlyWA said:

** I also think consumers are really unaware of how cheap an EV really is to operate.

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It's because not all of us live in areas where EVs ARE cheap to operate or where there aren't complicated rate structures. It's hard to express cost for PG&E when we have 5 tiers and multiple rate schedules. The rates themselves are moving targets too. Once you throw in a TOU schedule in an attempt to keep costs down, it makes the answer of how much it costs to "fuel" an EV even harder to answer.

See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10543" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; about the cost to run his diesel BMW vs. the Leaf. Madbrain's bill (because he has solar, net metering and is on a TOU plan) is insane: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1eSSO_7gwqeZVdHRER2bEtqcGs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It's from http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=235977#p235977" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

At least someone on Tivocommunity made me aware of http://www.pge.com/cgi-bin/pevcalculator/PEV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; recently.... That at least simplifies estimating.

See statements at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=241477#p241477" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and examples of pricing from last year at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=155519#p155519" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

If one's already in a high rate tier, it might be actually cheaper to fuel a Prius.