Stoaty
Posts: 4490
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: 2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:36 pm

TomT wrote:Yeah, I can easily count on one hand the total number of times I have used the heater as long as I have owned the car...
I used the heater/defroster for the first time a couple of days ago after 18 months of ownership. A more efficient heater wouldn't be a big draw for me. :)
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

GRA
Posts: 12199
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:31 pm

Oh, let's bitch about the ludicrous EPA highway test - traffic on a "free-flowing highway" never goes faster than 60 mph, and averages 48? See, we have these new-fangled roads called freeways (and toll expressways), and the free-flowing traffic speeds tend to be a hell of a lot higher than the test. Perhaps these improvements hadn't yet made it to wherever the hell the EPA designed their tests.
Harrumph!
Last edited by GRA on Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 2094
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: 2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:08 am

I find it amusing that all you hot-climate folks are saying that you never use the heater anyway, so it doesn't help. Heat pumps can only handle so much of a heat differential. If it's too cold out, you'll need a resistance heater anyway. Depending on where that line is, it might not do me any good either. If it's 20 degrees outside, I'll be wearing a heavy jacket. Combined with the heated seats, I'll be fine (as long as the windows don't fog up!). I don't really rely on the heater until it's down in the teens or lower, but how efficient is the heat pump at those temperatures anyway?

Of course, all this goes out the window when my kids are in the car. I don't have heated car seats (yet).
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14977
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:17 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:I find it amusing that all you hot-climate folks are saying that you never use the heater anyway, so it doesn't help. Heat pumps can only handle so much of a heat differential. If it's too cold out, you'll need a resistance heater anyway. Depending on where that line is, it might not do me any good either. If it's 20 degrees outside, I'll be wearing a heavy jacket. Combined with the heated seats, I'll be fine (as long as the windows don't fog up!). I don't really rely on the heater until it's down in the teens or lower, but how efficient is the heat pump at those temperatures anyway?

Of course, all this goes out the window when my kids are in the car. I don't have heated car seats (yet).
+1
I lived in Riverside and remember many a morning blasting the heat to get warm and hating my car because it took 5 minutes to do so. I mean it was a bone chilling 60º!!

now, I wear a coat (sometimes heated) and only toggle defrost on enough to clear the windows 80% of the time in Winter even with temps in low 40's. Am I warm? no. will I freeze? no.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 11,333.1 mi, 93.73% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: 2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:32 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:but how efficient is the heat pump at those temperatures anyway?
That is the important question. We won't know until we see the specifications and performance data.
The home heating inverter driven multi-zone mini-split heat pumps are very efficient down to very low temperatures.
Traditional heat pump systems for homes were efficient only down to around 30F.
But some of the inverter driven multi-zone mini-split heat pumps are very efficient down to 0F or possibly even -10F.
In Southern California the old style heat pump is useful, but as stated, that might not be a huge savings of battery capacity in Southern California.
But in colder, even somewhat moderate climates as Tennessee, efficient heat pump operation down to -10F would make the LEAF heating as efficient as the summer cooling in a large portion of the US. A big difference.
And even in northern climates that may occasionally hit -25F or -30F, would still be a huge improvement.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

User avatar
evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11480
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: 2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:31 pm

Would Leaf do part heat pump & part resistance heating ? Like the house ones do ...
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

fotajoye
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:18 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 669
Location: Northern California

Re: 2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:36 pm

Seems to me that reversing the AC unit and using that same unit as a heat pump, makes sense from a cost and hopefully space saving standpoint. Supposedly a heat pump is more efficient by a factor of 3 or better than a resistance heater.

But,you know what? with a more dense battery, we Leaf owners need not continue to deal with nits and can use the heater at will.

Shortly after I purchased my car, I read that the expected increase in battery density would be about 10 to 15 percent each year. I had the idea that if that was going to be the battery growth rate, that would be directly proportional to the future range of the car and that 70 miles on the first generation battery wasn't that hard to deal with.

It's my understanding from reading the posts here that the cell modules in the 2013 battery are the same as in the 2011 battery; it would seem that if the module part numbers are the same, the 2013 battery is electrically the same. It appears that any range increase in the 2013 JPN model has been found in efficiency mods and a reduction in weight.

We can still hope that Nissan's new U.S. model announcement in January will include a more dense battery.

Stoaty
Posts: 4490
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: 2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:53 pm

fotajoye wrote:We can still hope that Nissan's new U.S. model announcement in January will include a more dense battery.
Nope, it's the same battery capacity as the current Leaf.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: 2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:04 am

fotajoye wrote:Shortly after I purchased my car, I read that the expected increase in battery density would be about 10 to 15 percent each year.
I seem to recall Carlos Ghosn being quoted as saying 8%/year. But battery technology improves in fits and starts, so you must consider that an average over many years. Is his prediction correct? We'll have to wait a while for the answer to that question!
fotajoye wrote:I had the idea that if that was going to be the battery growth rate, that would be directly proportional to the future range of the car and that 70 miles on the first generation battery wasn't that hard to deal with.
Actually, I expect the range to increase at a faster rate than the energy density of the batteries. There are three reasons I expect this:

1) There are overhead functions such as climate control that take energy from the battery. Assuming these loads stay the same or get smaller in future models, a growing percentage of the battery capacity will be available as the battery capacity increases. Reductions in these loads will improve range without any battery capacity change.
2) Batteries are not the only area of EV technology that will be improved. Other improvements such as weight reduction and improvements in the efficiency of the electric drivetrain will also be realized.
3) Peukert's effect says that as you draw energy from a battery at a lower rate you will be able to draw more energy from the battery. The same thing occurs if you draw the same amount of power but the battery is larger. However, please note Li-ion batteries like the one in the LEAF have a fairly low Peukert's effect since battery resistance is so low. Also, this really only applies to batteries with the same chemistry and I expect the biggest gains to come from changing battery chemistry. Still, this concept should apply if you have a choice of different battery sizes within a given model year.

I think reasons 1) and 2) apply to the MY2013 LEAF in which there are supposedly no improvements in battery capacity yet there should be an improvement in range.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

User avatar
DaveEV
Posts: 6246
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: 2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:30 am

OrientExpress wrote:I visited the Nissan battery plant in Yokohama today
You're famous!


Edit: And you got a ride in the Nismo LEAF!

Return to “News & Main LEAF Discussion”