Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

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bonaire

Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
10
Why are the Nissan reps at the Philadelphia Auto Show (and perhaps others, dealerships, etc.) still telling potential buyers that the Leaf range is 100 miles when they ask them?

This raises their up-front expectations right away and then you have people who buy Leafs becoming irritated that they were misled. Forget the heat related decline. How about the drive-off decline from the point of purchase?

I actually want to add a Leaf to my garage to sit next to my Volt to take advantage of the new lease deals Nissan is offering. But hearing the Nissan reps spouting the 100mi range is troubling and this really turns me off from dealing with the company. It's like a bait and switch. And at worst, it's outright sales-fraud. Of course, it's only really fraud if there is a guarantee, which there isn't.

Anyone else irritated that Nissan continues to give the totally incorrect 100 mile range claim? It's not an estimate - it's a utility claim by someone representing the company, even if they are simply an auto-show demo-model.
 
bonaire said:
Why are the Nissan reps at the Philadelphia Auto Show (and perhaps others, dealerships, etc.) still telling potential buyers that the Leaf range is 100 miles when they ask them?

This raises their up-front expectations right away and then you have people who buy Leafs becoming irritated that they were misled. Forget the heat related decline. How about the drive-off decline from the point of purchase?

I actually want to add a Leaf to my garage to sit next to my Volt to take advantage of the new lease deals Nissan is offering. But hearing the Nissan reps spouting the 100mi range is troubling and this really turns me off from dealing with the company. It's like a bait and switch. And at worst, it's outright sales-fraud. Of course, it's only really fraud if there is a guarantee, which there isn't.

Anyone else irritated that Nissan continues to give the totally incorrect 100 mile range claim? It's not an estimate - it's a utility claim by someone representing the company, even if they are simply an auto-show demo-model.
I'm irritated by this as well. I had a similar experience with a Nissan rep at the LA Auto Show while I was having a conversation with someone interested in the LEAF. I try not to be bias when it comes to talking about the LEAF when people ask me about the car. I shared the information I had about my experiences, both good and bad. When we were talking about range, the rep must have been eavesdropping because she butted in and insisted that the LEAF will get 100 miles in range, and if I couldn't get 100 miles in range, then it was my poor driving habits. I think this is a pretty good example of how Nissan treats new car buyers AND existing owners, and it really is a shame.
 
From what I understand, many of the people that work at car shows as "reps" are not actual employees of the company. They are hired from an advertisement agency / marketing company. They are not permanent employees, although they might actually travel the USA to various car shows and represent the same company for the entire auto show "tour" that occurs. However, as these folks are just usually getting data from "bullet point lists" provided by the mfg, they are clueless.

As a HUGE Volkswagen and Audi fan, I can recall going to even the Detroit auto show in addition to the local, Cleveland, Ohio auto show. At both locations I would often see the same "hired help" and hear them spewing off the same inaccuracies to the general public. They are trained for the specific tasks at that show, and usually the people training them work for the domestic corporate and are equally as uneducated. You may be surprised to know that many people who work for auto mfg's don't actually like cars, or lack the passion that we have here on these forums.

All of that being said, that does not obviously excuse the mfg from sending half-truths into the wild. But for them to flow-down proper data, it takes a long time and is a daunting task. I'm guessing that Nissan Japan has yet to revise this data in such a way that it has flowed all the way down. For example, a month ago when my wife and I leased our 2012 Leaf from a local dealer, our salesperson indicated he has not personally delivered one (although his dealer had sold a few). He was less educated than I was on the car, which is not uncommon for sales people in this day and age. Sad, but true.

But alas, from what I've heard Tesla does the same thing. Promises ranges that are at peak conditions and unlikely for the average consumer. This isn't much different than the MPG ratings most cars carry. I rarely see those conditions on my ICE unless on the freeway using cruise control. Around town, my MPGs are always worse. Then again that might just be my lead foot... hahaha!!
 
Shaka said:
But alas, from what I've heard Tesla does the same thing. Promises ranges that are at peak conditions and unlikely for the average consumer.
I would hope that Tesla stopped advertising the internal design goal of 300/240/160 miles of range for Model S, and is using the official EPA rating instead. I know GM did that with the Volt, and Nissan would be wise to follow suit. Much of the agony in Phoenix and elsewhere started with unrealistic range expectations, which were followed by equally unexpected and fairly rapid drop in effective autonomy.
 
Actually, when I visited Tesla last week they were very upfront and honest about the range, giving what the EPA numbers are and explaining that you might get more, or considerably less, depending on a number of factors, which they then explained in fairly good detail. It was refreshing after constantly hearing the Nissan 100 mile mantral.

Shaka said:
But alas, from what I've heard Tesla does the same thing. Promises ranges that are at peak conditions and unlikely for the average consumer.
 
This is what I was suggesting to Yokohama marketing trip people, make the car that can do 100 miles, or drop this unrealistic claim
 
I wonder if Japanese culture is the reason why they make those claims. And don't forget, the official range number for Japan is even higher and more unrealistic.

It turns me off as well, but I'll probably buy a '13 anyway. There aren't any other BEV options around here, and I can get by with a 50 or 60 mile range most of the time. I keep reminding myself that my van has a 260 mile range and I don't even fill it up weekly. I could probaby drive 90%+ electric on a Volt.
 
Yeah, they may have similar cultural issues as China where "Saving Face" is an incredibly important issue.

"We've been saying 100miles for two years now ... why stop now?"
or
"Our demo dollies must have been trained in 2011, we have made adjustments to that and will retrain them shortly..."

My "beef" is this. You put a shirt on with the company logo on it and "represent" the company - then YOU are the company and you are responsible for correct information. I'm sure Carlos thinks this is fine and part of "doing business".
 
I don't mind if somebody uses the 100-mile figure as long as they put it into context. For example, when people ask me how far my Leaf can go on a single charge, I will tell them, "Well.... You can get about 100 miles if you drive on city streets at a constant speed, on a flat ground, with the air conditioner off, on a warm day." But then I follow that up with "Realistically, most people are going to get 60-70 miles in city driving, or 50-60 on the highway." If time permits I also go on to explain that most people overestimate how many miles they actually drive, and that the range is more than you think.

Just like with the charging time, I always have to explain the 3 types of charging, and then the most important part of that is that the battery will almost never be empty when starting the charge, meaning those are always worst-case-scenario charge times. For example, my charge time is usually about an hour each day when I get home from work.

So, numbers are good only when explained with real-life scenarios. I too am irritated that Nissan would throw out that 100 miles range without explaining to people that this would be a best-case scenario.
 
Shaka said:
From what I understand, many of the people that work at car shows as "reps" are not actual employees of the company. They are hired from an advertisement agency / marketing company. They are not permanent employees, although they might actually travel the USA to various car shows and represent the same company for the entire auto show "tour" that occurs. However, as these folks are just usually getting data from "bullet point lists" provided by the mfg, they are clueless.
The rep at the LA Auto Show was quite well informed of the issues with the LEAF. She had the Nissan-approved answer for anything I mentioned that was negative (e.g. range < 100 miles, effects of hot weather on battery capacity, lack of DC charging infrastructure). I have to commend her for that because my impression from the salespeople at the dealerships (back when I was car shopping) was that they were not well-informed about the LEAF, to the point where I just stopped asking questions about the car because I was embarrassed for them. Still, it bothers me that Nissan is still forcing the car show reps (and salespeople) to continue this spin.

TomT said:
Actually, when I visited Tesla last week they were very upfront and honest about the range, giving what the EPA numbers are and explaining that you might get more, or considerably less, depending on a number of factors, which they then explained in fairly good detail. It was refreshing after constantly hearing the Nissan 100 mile mantral.
I found the Tesla salespeople to be better informed about the LEAF than Nissan's, at least in my limited experience with both. I spoke with a Tesla salesperson, and he had a lot of good things and some not-so-good things to say about the LEAF, but he was correct, unbiased, fair, and very well-informed.
 
It's simple: it's part of the marketing message. If sales (or anyone in a customer facing sales & marketing role) doesn't follow the marketing messages, they get their hands slapped. It happens in every business; it happens where I work. Now that doesn't mean we have to perpetuate the message, but that also doesn't mean we should bad mouth the car because we don't like the marketing. I tell people you may get UP TO 100 miles DEPENDING ON DRIVING CONDITIONS, ETC., but I don't speak negatively about the car just because marketing chooses NOT to change their message.
 
it's a funky place to be in that marketing arm. When the window sticker says EPA of 99 MPGe and they then equate that to 100 miles of range. The window sticker clearly says 73 miles of range per charge on it. Why can't they just say "about 73 miles per charge" like the window sticker says?

My Chevy Volt's window sticker says 35 miles per charge. My best day was 49 miles on a charge. Shouldn't I tell friends and potential buyers that my Chevy Volt gets 49 miles electric range? (ah, forget that as most people think the Volt is an all-electric car anyway and don't understand it) The best someone did on gm-volt.com was a member hitting just about 80 miles on a charge driving 35 mph. So, should Chevy reps say the Volt gets 50 miles per charge? 80 miles? No, they have stayed with the EPA numbers and start from a realistic 35 miles, even though most drivers beat that handily.

We've heard the stories about people writing blogs and complaint forum posts about the Leaf that they got which gave them 50 miles of range on a cold winter day after an 80% charge when the dealer sold them the 100-mile per charge angle. Nissan just perpetuates this by selling the 100-mile story and when Leaf owners speak to others about their un-satisfied expectations, it helps to keep others from buying it. While Volt owners are speaking of surpassed expectations on mileage. Like I said in the OP, I would love to lease a Leaf and would have my own expectations about it. But for others who are not yet informed, I think Nissan is hurting themselves and that turns into mudslinging by the general public who keeps saying "EVs are not ready for prime time - just look at Joe, he was supposed to be getting 100 miles per charge and he barely gets 75 and it's a new car!" That wording of supposed-to has a lot of weight in our culture. Forget "Saving Face", Nissan - let's just work with facts.
 
Edmunds did an interesting real-world side-by-side comparison of several EVs. It was published a few days ago. The effective range for the LEAF was estimated at 83 miles in this particular scenario.

newownermnl


Click to open (source: Edmunds)
 
surfingslovak said:
Edmunds did an interesting real-world side-by-side comparison of several EVs. It was published a few days ago. The effective range for the LEAF was 83 miles to turtle in this particular scenario.

newownermnl


Click to open (source: Edmunds)

That Edmunds article is good reading, thanks for linking.

I wonder if the Leaf was hamstrung in this test by not being able to use the capacity under the bars. I don't know if there would be enough juice to match the 10 mile longer range of the Golf that ranked just ahead of it but it could have done better.
 
The Focus BEV was a little more efficient than the Leaf in this test.

The Focus was a nice car - saw one at the Phila Auto Show not too far away from the Leaf. the Chevy Volts were way off on the side, hard to find. The Ford's were center in the room at the convention center and had a little bit of traffic.

I just didn't see the love for EVs at the Auto show. Not sure if it is the recent stabilizing of gas prices or peoples' lack of interest in driving smoothly, quietly and with high-torque. Jeep had a display where they drove the jeeps over rough "simulated" bumps and a big metal hill (bigger than a car-carrier truck in size). Big interest in Camaros, Corvettes, Porches and anything foreign.

The "year of the EV" appears to be years out from here. I keep telling people - once businesses put in 120V and 240V plugs at work for EV owners and potential future EV owners, we will see a growth spike. Without participation by the end-point of the commute, the truly only viable EV is the EREV at this point unless your commute is a manageable 20-30 miles max each way and then a Leaf would work great as a gas-saving commuter car. I still think 2013 should double the plug-in sales of 2012 which itself tripled the plug-in sales of 2011. But that's still the early part of the future growth curve.
 
At first, from the title, I thought I was going to hear what the '13 Leaf's official EPA rating is... :/
bonaire said:
Why are the Nissan reps at the Philadelphia Auto Show (and perhaps others, dealerships, etc.) still telling potential buyers that the Leaf range is 100 miles when they ask them?

This raises their up-front expectations right away and then you have people who buy Leafs becoming irritated that they were misled...
I'm dismayed to still hear that going on. I've griped about it before as the Tony Williams and I have both heard it at auto shows in our respective areas late last year. I even posted a poll at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and NOBODY thought they should be telling people 100 miles.

Agree, it sets expectations way too high and sets people up for disappointment.

Nissan needs to stop this 100-mile messaging and have them say a more realistic number (e.g. EPA rated range of 73 miles or whatever the '13 will be rated at) AND state the caveats.
 
adric22 said:
So, numbers are good only when explained with real-life scenarios. I too am irritated that Nissan would throw out that 100 miles range without explaining to people that this would be a best-case scenario.

I noticed in the BMW i3 article I read today that they wisely call the range "60-90" on electricity, and some number over 200 miles with the 2 cylinder motorcycle engine option.
 
I'd take a corporate message of "between 60 and 80". EVs are simply "between". Unlike gas engines which deliver roughly the same mpg no matter what the weather, EVs are touchy due to climate and how heavy you are with the pedal.

The Volt message is something like "between 30 and 45 miles per charge". Depending who you talk to.

There were a lot of people at the Philly Auto Show who literally couldn't fit into a Leaf, Volt or Focus EV. (yeah, I know, it's Philly - home of the cheesesteak) Come on car companies - we need CUV and SUV EREV and BEV models to move this electric automotive thing along.
 
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