Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

yeah, I think the Leaf might have gotten more range than they allowed for. This is what they said:

In the interest of safety we start looking for a convenient place to stop when the distance-to-empty gauge (DTE) drops to 5 miles. Any vehicles that make it back to the start are halted there. In every case the cars are trailered back to our metered Level-2 charge port so we can determine consumption. Any remaining DTE miles are added back in to determine the total range.

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So basically, if I interpret this correctly, when the Leaf said 5 miles remaining, they found a place to pull over and stop. Then they took whatever range the car had managed to accomplish and added 5 miles to that. Now I don't personally have any experience with this area since the lowest number I think I've ever seen on my Leaf was 6 miles, but from what people on here have said, it sounds like they might have gotten an additional 3-5 miles out of the car over and above what they rated it for.

TonyWilliams said:

adric22 said:

So, numbers are good only when explained with real-life scenarios. I too am irritated that Nissan would throw out that 100 miles range without explaining to people that this would be a best-case scenario.

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I noticed in the BMW i3 article I read today that they wisely call the range "60-90" on electricity, and some number over 200 miles with the 2 cylinder motorcycle engine option.

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I believe the REx comes online at 20% SOC, so the all-electric range will definitely be less than 100 miles. It's not clear yet, which drive modes will be available, or if the REx can be disabled. The rated battery capacity is rumored to be 23 kWh, and judging by what they did with the MINI-E and ActiveE, about 87% will be usable. If you factor in discharge inefficiency, we are looking at about 19 - 20 kWh availble to the driver. The i3 is rumored to be more efficient, but even then, 100 EV miles would be a best-case scenario.

adric22 said:

Now I don't personally have any experience with this area since the lowest number I think I've ever seen on my Leaf was 6 miles, but from what people on here have said, it sounds like they might have gotten an additional 3-5 miles out of the car over and above what they rated it for.

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Yes, they didn't drive to turtle, like I originally assumed. They simply did, what an average novice driver would do too: trust the GOM to the letter. While they underestimated the true range of the LEAF by about 4 to 5 miles, the same thing can be probably said of all the other EVs too. Depending on how much padding these cars had at low SOC, and how inaccurate their GOM was. For example, the driver community has learned that the ActiveE has about 3-5 miles left when the GOM shows three dashes. I believe the Fit EV has some reserve too, but I'm not all too familiar with others. Not a very scientific test, but they wanted a real-world comparison.

This was interesting:

2012 Toyota RAV4 EV --7.7 seconds (0-60mph) 4,042 pounds measured
2012 BMW ActiveE ---- 9.5 seconds (0-60mph) 4,074 pounds measured

My big tank can haul all the kids and their "stuff", smoke the ActiveE in a straight line acceleration, all at the same weight with 30% more battery and range.

surfingslovak said:

Yes, they didn't drive to turtle, like I originally assumed. They simply did, what an average novice driver would do too: trust the GOM to the letter. While they underestimated the true range of the LEAF by about 4 to 5 miles, the same thing can be probably said of all the other EVs too. Depending on how much padding these cars had at low SOC, and how inaccurate their GOM was. For example, the driver community has learned that the ActiveE has about 3-5 miles left when the GOM shows three dashes. I believe the Fit EV has some reserve too, but I'm not all too familiar with others. Not a very scientific test, but they wanted a real-world comparison.

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Yeah, I don't like how they trusted the GOM and also later used it to add back miles. They should've taken each to turtle, even if they had to deviate a little once they reached their safety threshold.

cwerdna said:

Yeah, I don't like how they trusted the GOM and also later used it to add back miles. They should've taken each to turtle, even if they had to deviate a little once they reached their safety threshold.

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Yes, there is no way of knowing how far the car will go without a date with the turtle

TonyWilliams said:

My big tank can haul all the kids and their "stuff", smoke the ActiveE in a straight line acceleration, all at the same weight with 30% more battery and range.

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Yes, that is odd. I was going to say that it's because the RAV4 had a big honking motor from the Model S, but it doesn't look like it? If the spec sheet was right, then the RAV4 motor has 10% lower peak power, but 10% higher maximum torque. The ActiveE is just a mule for the i3 powertrain, which is supposed to be 1/3 lighter. Be that as it may, the RAV4 is a mightily tempting EV.

bonaire said:

I'd take a corporate message of "between 60 and 80". EVs are simply "between". Unlike gas engines which deliver roughly the same mpg no matter what the weather, EVs are touchy due to climate and how heavy you are with the pedal.

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There is a lot of variability with ICE as well - just that it is a lot more difficult to notice (esp. older cars that don't show mpg). Just see all the variation in Prius (or CMax !).

evnow said:

bonaire said:

I'd take a corporate message of "between 60 and 80". EVs are simply "between". Unlike gas engines which deliver roughly the same mpg no matter what the weather, EVs are touchy due to climate and how heavy you are with the pedal.

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There is a lot of variability with ICE as well - just that it is a lot more difficult to notice (esp. older cars that don't show mpg). Just see all the variation in Prius (or CMax !).

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With ICEVs, there can be plenty of variability but not necessarily due to weather, generally it's city vs. highway driving along w/other variables like trip length and amount of idling. Short trips w/lots of idling kills mileage.

However, weather can cause what seems like more noticeable mpg variation due to measuring mpg instead of "gallonage". See http://priuschat.com/threads/car-and-driver-mileage-no-its-your-gallonage-that-really-counts.95536/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. A 50 mpg drop to 45 mpg sounds huge, but in terms of gallonage, it's not as big as a 20 to 19 mpg drop. Yet, someone w/a 20 mpg vehicle might dismiss a 1 mpg delta.

I took a look at the official Nissan site, looking for that 100 mile range claim, and as far as I can see, it's nowhere to be seen.

Instead, under range, they show the rainbow of curves with ranges from 62 miles to 138 miles depending on listed, clickable driving conditions.

I don't recall whether the equivalent web page previously touted 100 miles, but it doesn't appear to now.

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range?next=ev_micro.section_nav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^^^
I understand, but the issue at hand is that Nissan's reps at auto shows at their booth were (in late 2012) and now still apparently telling people the Leaf's range is 100 miles. I've overheard it at the auto show I went to and others have heard/overheard as well, at their auto shows.

I do recall that the older Leaf site back in the '11 model year (and possibly before it was even available for sale) listed similar or the same scenarios w/the same caveats.

mikeEmike said:

adric22 said:

I don't mind if somebody uses the 100-mile figure as long as they put it into context.

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The problem is that it is almost never put into context, at least not by someone trying to sell you the car.

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Yep!

mikeEmike said:

I'm irritated by this as well. I had a similar experience with a Nissan rep at the LA Auto Show while I was having a conversation with someone interested in the LEAF. I try not to be bias when it comes to talking about the LEAF when people ask me about the car. I shared the information I had about my experiences, both good and bad. When we were talking about range, the rep must have been eavesdropping because she butted in and insisted that the LEAF will get 100 miles in range, and if I couldn't get 100 miles in range, then it was my poor driving habits. I think this is a pretty good example of how Nissan treats new car buyers AND existing owners, and it really is a shame.

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Sigh.... it ought to be a requirement that ANY of those reps who say that (esp, "100 miles, on average" :roll: ) be forced to try to get 100 miles on a charge esp. in winter and w/some highway driving thrown in there. I suspect none of them have actually tried.

As I was plugging the other day in a local Kroger lot, a man walked in and asked me about the range. I told him bluntly that 100 miles is all Nissan BS, and he should plan on no more than 50 miles in winter and 65 miles in general. Anything more is bonus. He shook his head and walked away. But I told him the lease deals are incredibly cheap, that if his commute is less than 65 miles, then Leaf should be a no-brainer.

The guy shaking his head there must have been thinking "heh, guy can only go 75 miles before he breaks down"... Which is really bad thinking but that's how people come to conclusions. In a city environment with good charging locations - a Leaf works wonders, I'd bet. In a rural community (the fly-over states) and anyone who has a long commute with no chance of plugging in (this is 99% of all commuters) it is hard to fathom. This is why EVs are having such a hard time getting "herd traction". Traction amongst the common-man/family/buyer.

Maybe it is that the 100 miles "gets them in the showroom" and then "reality can be rationalized away". 300Wh to 350Wh per mile is acceptable for almost any EV that is driven in normal traffic or about 60mph on the highway. You can even granny-along a Tesla roadster or model-S and get fantastic mileage out of it. When you drive like many normal drivers in a typical "suburban commuter cycle" - someone who goes harder from the light, drives 70mph on a 55mph highway, etc. Those are the ones who see the worst "delta from marketing" in terms of mileage. Put one of today's highway hogs (as I call them) who drive with authority in their Mercedes or BMW company cars. They'll see 400Wh per mile easily on their utility cycle.

A hypermiling prius driver may be able to hit 80-90 miles in a Leaf using their skills on a warm spring day. 100 or more miles if you are a pace car for a professional bicycle race (25-40mph range). Typical commuter cycle (the target audience of a Leaf) should be stated as 75 mile range.

Boomer23 said:

I took a look at the official Nissan site, looking for that 100 mile range claim, and as far as I can see, it's nowhere to be seen.
Instead, under range, they show the rainbow of curves with ranges from 62 miles to 138 miles depending on listed, clickable driving conditions.
I don't recall whether the equivalent web page previously touted 100 miles, but it doesn't appear to now.

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range?next=ev_micro.section_nav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Boomer...that's an awesome link. THAT is what should be clearly in front of every person who doesn't know and is wanting to talk Leaf. The only caveat it's missing is the information is brand new drive off the lot range. Year 3 of the lease, ymmv.

ut oh....found it.... 106 MPGe*
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/key-features?next=ev_micro.section_nav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MPGe has nothing to do with range.

bonaire said:

The guy shaking his head there must have been thinking "heh, guy can only go 75 miles before he breaks down"... Which is really bad thinking but that's how people come to conclusions. In a city environment with good charging locations - a Leaf works wonders, I'd bet. In a rural community (the fly-over states) and anyone who has a long commute with no chance of plugging in (this is 99% of all commuters) it is hard to fathom. This is why EVs are having such a hard time getting "herd traction". Traction amongst the common-man/family/buyer.

Maybe it is that the 100 miles "gets them in the showroom" and then "reality can be rationalized away". 300Wh to 350Wh per mile is acceptable for almost any EV that is driven in normal traffic or about 60mph on the highway. You can even granny-along a Tesla roadster or model-S and get fantastic mileage out of it. When you drive like many normal drivers in a typical "suburban commuter cycle" - someone who goes harder from the light, drives 70mph on a 55mph highway, etc. Those are the ones who see the worst "delta from marketing" in terms of mileage. Put one of today's highway hogs (as I call them) who drive with authority in their Mercedes or BMW company cars. They'll see 400Wh per mile easily on their utility cycle.

A hypermiling prius driver may be able to hit 80-90 miles in a Leaf using their skills on a warm spring day. 100 or more miles if you are a pace car for a professional bicycle race (25-40mph range). Typical commuter cycle (the target audience of a Leaf) should be stated as 75 mile range.

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With hypermiling, they should easily be able to get 100 miles on a 100% charge. I could routinely get 100 miles on an 80% charge.

LEAFfan said:

Typical commuter cycle (the target audience of a Leaf) should be stated as 75 mile range.

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With hypermiling, they should easily be able to get 100 miles on a 100% charge. I could routinely get 100 miles on an 80% charge.

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The point EXACTLY... John Q. Public doesn't hypermile, and he is the target audience.

ksnogas2112 - love your avatar. I'm a big fan too.

And, for above, I doubt anyone is "routinely" getting 100 miles on an 80% charge in the Leaf unless it is in closed-course, laboratory conditions.

The other morning, I was commuting to work (70 miles one way) in the Volt.

I was keeping up with traffic at about 63mph on a 55mph highway. I spy some interesting tail lights ahead in the right lane. Lo and behold a Leaf. Light blue and windows foggy (32*F). I pass with traffic in the left lane and note he was going maybe 54-55mph. 1 mile later (this is in SE PA - so heh, this is rare) another light blue leaf driven by a young woman. Going about 56mph in the right lane. Windows foggy but she seems a bit more determined than the first guy who appeared to be hypermiling and perhaps freezing. Were they heaterless? I was heaterless in the Volt as well, but do kick on the heater once I enter Mountain Mode in the middle portion of the drive (which is EV-gas-EV for my 70 miles - 41mpg on gas, about 35 miles electric when it's 32*F).

The western suburbs of Philadelphia are good target for Leafs but our electric prices are indeed higher than other parts of the country. Delivered, it is .167/kWh. If they're leasing the Leafs for the new $199/mo and charging at home and doing 20-30 miles to the office, they're doing well in this corridor. I've also been seeing a lot more Volts out there.

I'm tossing up between a Leaf, Focus EV (kinda pricey) or just waiting it out for a couple years to see what else is to come. sure would like an EREV SUV or CUV and the VW CrossBlue seems nice. http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2013/01/new-volkswagen-crossblue-67-seater-suv.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bonaire said:

... Windows foggy but she seems a bit more determined than the first guy who appeared to be hypermiling and perhaps freezing. Were they heaterless?

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I suspect they had the seat and steering wheel heaters on, but otherwise, probably no heater. You quickly learn in a LEAF how much power that thing sucks!!!

ksnogas2112 said:

Boomer23 said:

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range?next=ev_micro.section_nav

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Boomer...that's an awesome link. THAT is what should be clearly in front of every person who doesn't know and is wanting to talk Leaf. The only caveat it's missing is the information is brand new drive off the lot range. Year 3 of the lease, ymmv.

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You're right, that is a major hole. They should at least say they expect an average 20% range loss after 5 years/60K miles, more in hot climates. Three other important missing data points:

• I think the numbers they give are to Turtle. They should say how far you can go to LBW, since I suspect a majority of drivers will not want to go lower than that.
• The only thing that comes close to freeway driving is their "Cross-town commute on a hot day" with an average speed of 49mph. It is unclear how much of the loss is due to speed and how much due to the air conditioner. They should should show a case that is 95% freeway driving at 70 mph with no heating/cooling needed.
• Their only winter case is urban stop and go. Show a case at, say, 65mph and 14 degrees F. Tony's chart says that should be nearly as bad as the one they show, proving that cold itself reduces range even if the heater isn't running that long.

Ray