Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013, 6pm, drinks prior

myleaf said:

Weatherman said:

myleaf said:

It was mentioned that the LEAF battery is air cooled -- similar to liquid cooling. An example mentioned is that the human body is air cooled.

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Bad example. Our bodies are cooled mostly by evaporation of water. Vastly more effective than simple air cooling.

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I know - Just capturing what I heard

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To be fair, having watched the video, Andy did actually refer to both evaporation and air cooling in combination not just "simple air cooling" when talking about the human body. I just wanted to clarify that for those who don't watch the video.

MrIanB said:

LuvNLeaf said:

Sorry it took so long, but I finally managed to get my video of the Jan 8 Nissan LEAF Town Hall talk posted on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuPQe23vP0Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It runs close to two hours in length (1:53:17 to be exact), but it's posted in its entirety start to finish.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuPQe23vP0Y[/youtube]

Enjoy.
Jim

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Thanks for posting the video. Quite a bit of frustrated and disillusioned Az buyers. I can't complain here in Texas after 1 year on y lease, still have 12 bars but my range has decreased some as I can no longer reach 100 miles driving as I did in my first 6 months. Overall very satisfied as still getting between 75-80 miles per charge. No problems and the car going in the next couple of weeks for its first yearly battery test.

I hope Nissan comes through for everyone starting with my compadres in Az.

Ian B

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"Chili" turned a year old here in Texas today and got her yearly battery check w 5 stars all across. Gave her a treat for doing well with a wash. The report is pretty minimal and no results data on it. She has 8990 miles as of today and all 12 bars showing. I can no longer get 90-100+ plus mile on a single charge. My range now is between 70-80/85 miles on a single charge w no changes in driving style since I work from home, and charge 2-3x per week to 100%. Car is garaged 24/7 and typical battery temp is 6 bars.

Overall I am completely satisfied, exceeded my expectations and about 1500 dollars just from gas savings in my savings account. No other issues w the car and they changed the cabin air filter.

Ian B

MrIanB said:

Overall I am completely satisfied, exceeded my expectations and about 1500 dollars just from gas savings in my savings account. No other issues w the car and they changed the cabin air filter.

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Good to hear!

MrIanB said:

"Chili" turned a year old here in Texas today

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Happy Birthday Chili and congrats to MrIanB for a gas-free year!

RWatkins said:

To be fair, having watched the video, Andy did actually refer to both evaporation and air cooling in combination not just "simple air cooling" when talking about the human body. I just wanted to clarify that for those who don't watch the video.

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Honestly after watching the video he came off better that I expected from reading the forum.

I know people are mad about the battery degredation and Nissan's slow response but if the battery guague is "always going to be pessimistic" and ther is room to make it less "pessimistic" AKA more accurate then the issue isn't as bad as the bars make it seem.

My concern in other threads was that the dealer could magically make a 9 bar leaf a 12 bar leaf by doing a software reset without fixing the battery. But if that so called "9 bar leaf" is really more like a "10 or 11 bar leaf" isn't it good to have Nissan recalibrate the display to be more accurate? Ideally the recalibration would make it a 10 or 11 bar leaf right away or within a charge cylcle or two instead of moving the car to an inaccurate 12 bars.*

I don't want them to mislead anyone but I think what Andy meant by "always pessimistic" is that if they adjust the bars it won't be to mislead it will only be to make them more accurate. If that is what he meant I think he could have used different phrasing to make it more clear to angry people that don't want to give him the benifit of the doubt.

Just to be clear I'm not saying there isn't an Arizona issue or hot weather issue. I fully beleive that there is more than one issue at play. It's just in the past I thought it was something like mostly heat with a minor touch of inaccurate display and now I'm willing to entertain the possibility that it might be closer to a 50/50 mix of heat degredation and dispalyed state of charge goofiness.

Now about that * above. Do we remember a certain AZ Leaf owner that got his car reset to 12 bars and didn't loose the 1st bar again for several weeks. If his car went from 9 or 10 bars to 12 bars then back to 11 then by definition it was not pessimistic for that time it spent back at 12 bars again after the reset. Maybe Andy should modify his statement to say that on average or the majority of the time it will be pessimistic. I can't think of a short sentence with disclaimers that covers the behavior on a car that went from less bars that it should have to more bars that it should have back to something in between.

dhanson865 said:

I know people are mad about the battery degredation and Nissan's slow response but if the battery guague is "always going to be pessimistic" and ther is room to make it less "pessimistic" AKA more accurate then the issue isn't as bad as the bars make it seem.

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I'm not exactly sure which 'gauge' you're referring to, but there are two, distinct problems on the dash...

1. GOM/SOC gauge accuracy. Leaning on the side of pessimism here is fine, as is improving the accuracy (if Nissan manages to do this). But let's be honest here, folks. Unless you're talking about someone driving a LEAF rental car for the first time or letting your mom borrow your LEAF for a day or two, the GOM/SOC gauge accuracy really isn't that big of a deal. It only takes a matter of *days* for most owners to understand the range capabilities of their EVs and how the range is (roughly) affected by various conditions (speed, weather, use of A/C or heat, age of battery pack, etc.). Most owners can probably estimate range on a particular day within 5 to 10 miles before even leaving the house.

2. Capacity gauge accuracy. This gauge is most certainly not pessimistic. Many folks are seeing greater reductions in range than have been represented by lost bars on this gauge. We could probably argue the significance of this for days, but for most, I think it simply comes down to the deeper issue... the premature degradation of the battery pack that Nissan calls "normal."

opossum said:

2. Capacity gauge accuracy. This gauge is most certainly not pessimistic. Many folks are seeing greater reductions in range than have been represented by lost bars on this gauge. We could probably argue the significance of this for days, but for most, I think it simply comes down to the deeper issue... the premature degradation of the battery pack that Nissan calls "normal."

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While this is likely true for "usable" range, the Arizona test of "measured" range showed that the gauge certainly is pessimistic:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Range_Test_on_Cars_with_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

surfingslovak said:

RWatkins said:

Any idea how warm the pack would get in typical Phoenix day from pre-cooled state of 65-70 degrees F ?.
Pre-cool the battery while plugged in, reduce solar gain with shading and/or window treatment, line inside of underbelly cover with radiant barrier to block excess heat when parked over hot pavement and look at other ways of stabilizing battery temp in ideal range. If ambient air temp is too high it obviously can't be used to cool battery without being pre-cooled itself. Using cooled cabin air while driving would help maintain lower temp until next plugin permitted pre-cooling the battery.

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TickTock posted this last summer:

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Been thinking about this some more. A few thoughts:
1) using the solar to run a fan - why? We've already established that the solar panel is purely cosmetic and could not provide any significant charge to the battery even if wired to do so. So, by logical extension, a fan that can run off the solar could just as easily run off the battery with almost no impact to the charge in the battery. But connecting to the battery provides a lot more flexibility (like operation when in the shade).
2) I agree with Nissan on the use of air rather then liquid cooling but think it should be chilled air. Based on the slow rise in the temp while parked in the above graph (and it never reached ambient - only the sensor saw that during the drive home), it seems like pre-cooling the battery as RWatkins suggested whenever connected to power (using the AC to cool the air passed through the battery compartment) would dramatically reduce the average temp while away. This would also reduce the QC impact. Seems mod-able. Every silver lining has a dark cloud I guess (now that there is a warranty, I'll have to wait to attempt anything :| )

opossum said:

dhanson865 said:

I know people are mad about the battery degredation and Nissan's slow response but if the battery guague is "always going to be pessimistic" and ther is room to make it less "pessimistic" AKA more accurate then the issue isn't as bad as the bars make it seem.

Click to expand...

I'm not exactly sure which 'gauge' you're referring to, but there are two, distinct problems on the dash...

1. GOM/SOC gauge accuracy. Leaning on the side of pessimism here is fine, as is improving the accuracy (if Nissan manages to do this). But let's be honest here, folks. Unless you're talking about someone driving a LEAF rental car for the first time or letting your mom borrow your LEAF for a day or two, the GOM/SOC gauge accuracy really isn't that big of a deal. It only takes a matter of *days* for most owners to understand the range capabilities of their EVs and how the range is (roughly) affected by various conditions (speed, weather, use of A/C or heat, age of battery pack, etc.). Most owners can probably estimate range on a particular day within 5 to 10 miles before even leaving the house. ... snip ........

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It's not the "days" that's the issue, it's the 1st few times that surprise you, that kill your EV expectations that become issues. You try to take that 1st "unusual" 45 mile trip to a wedding ... it's cold and you have to climb 3,900 feet. The unexpected WILL happen. Baam, you catch the last 5 minutes of the reception if you're lucky. The right/realistic range gauge could prevent that 1st time bad EV experience/disappointment.
Mapping tech is so precise now, you CAN predict range via your road's max speed, geographic heat/degradation, elevation, seasonal weather, etc. But then you'd pay a tad more for the map program. big deal. It's ok to pay (less) for what you get ... only you have to let customers know what you get ... not wait for owners to bitch about it.

what is the price of a new battery installed and what is my old battery worth in trade in?

Jan. 8thers still want to know.

hill said:

You try to take that 1st "unusual" 45 mile trip to a wedding ... it's cold and you have to climb 3,900 feet. The unexpected WILL happen. Baam, you catch the last 5 minutes of the reception if you're lucky. The right/realistic range gauge could prevent that 1st time bad EV experience/disappointment.

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We still remember encountering you and your wife charging at Fontana Nissan on your way home from that wedding (we were adding some charge to get home, up the mountain). At least you didn't have to call a tow truck!

The solution of course would be a range calculation based on the route to a destination supplied by the driver, ideally with indications of predicted, remaining range along the route.