MIL: Dealer says "they've increased the range to 102 miles"

Here's the story: We got our 2012 Leaf back in October & love it. Our in-laws came up from SoCal to stay with us over the holidays, and we had a lot of fun showing off the Leaf for them. My mother in law in particular was excited about the car, and in general just really interested in learning more about it. We talked about what we love: never paying for gas, all the cool "techie" features, how quiet and smooth the car is. We mentioned the great deal we got on our lease. We were also upfront with the limitations, mainly range, and we did charge at public stations a few times (and have to switch out to our ICE car once) while they were here. They headed back down south and my MIL said she was going to start tracking her mileage to see if the Leaf would work for her.

Fast forward ~3 months, and my MIL's Honda is looking like it will need some major repairs that may not be cost effective. She calls up one of the Nissan dealers down in San Diego, and emails me with excitement that, "They told me they increased the range to 102 miles and decreased the charging time to 4.5 hours!" Now, she is a smart lady, but she is not the type to be hunting down real-world figures on message board such as this one. I want to be an advocate for the Leaf, but I also do have hesitations about if it would really be the right second car for them (their other car would be a large Ford van that eats gas and isn't very comfortable). They are retired and pretty active, and the types of day trips possible on theoretical "102-mile range" and actual 2013 Leaf SoCal freeway range would be quite different. Leaf would probably get her 90% of her trips, but the other 10% might be quite annoying, require renting a car, etc.

I'm glad she is coming to me for advice on this (and I'm going to advise her to look at a range (haha.."range") of options, including the PIP and Volt), but I just feel kind of bummed that the Nissan dealers don't seem to be really truthful about what the range means. Yes, it may have been improved, but you aren't going to get 102 miles in typical San Diego freeway driving at 70 MPH+. People need to know that to make the decision about if the Leaf is right for them -- and I am disappointed that ~3 years into the Leaf journey we are still seeing this lack of clarity from dealers. As much as I would love to see her get a Leaf, I would rather her not get one if she is going to run into trouble with it.

Okay -- rant over! As a follow up question, thoughts on PIP vs. Volt for someone who takes occasional trips of 50-60 miles each way on the weekends like my MIL?

Sigh.... it is disappointing to continue to hear such BS just like what reps at auto shows have been telling people late last year (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

I wish it would stop as it's only going to lead to very disappointed customers who will be pissed at Nissan, their dealer or both.

Does she plan to lease or buy? If buying, throw in the Rav 4 EV since there are $10K of So Cal Toyota incentives on it (in addition to the Federal tax credit and CVRP).

I wouldn't get too stuck on the principle of how dealers exaggerate, they all do, I'd look more at what her actual driving needs are and if a real world 75 max miles would fit the bill, most folks use a lot less on a daily basis. I think an average commute of 40 miles with some room for spontaneity and age related range loss is an ideal for fit for the Leaf.

^^^
I'm generally concerned about dealers exaggerating or giving misleading range values w/o qualifying them properly. What about folks who don't have friends or family who know what's realistic w/a Leaf?

There's a big difference between something that irks me a lot (e.g. cherrypicking the the highest EPA mileage value for ICEVs, usually highway on non-hybrids) and being disappointed by that vs. quoting a range value that's unattainable by a buyer unless driven very slowly (esp. if it's dangerously slow), making the vehicle useless or near useless for their needs.

Actually this just sounds like a clueless salesman who charged one up, saw the GOM say 102 miles, and starts spouting it as gospel.

Here's my drive in a 2013 LEAF on the freeways of San Diego. I didn't quite make 102 miles.

With no heater or air conditioning at about 65mph, 81 miles of range.

For an occasional 50-60 mile trip, even a 102 mile range isn't enough. I forget what the Rav4ev can do, but it might not be enough either.

Can MIL incorporate destination charging, or a QC pitstop?

Can they replace the Ford as well?

With dealers like that, who needs Broders?

davewill said:

Actually this just sounds like a clueless salesman who charged one up, saw the GOM say 102 miles, and starts spouting it as gospel.

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Or he was clueless and thought the 102 MPGe EPA rating was the range.

cwerdna said:

davewill said:

Actually this just sounds like a clueless salesman who charged one up, saw the GOM say 102 miles, and starts spouting it as gospel.

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Or he was clueless and thought the 102 MPGe EPA rating was the range.

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I just checked and noticed Nissan has changed their website and no longer list the MPGe as their range figure. In fact, now they are listing 75 miles as the range on the website. Which is probably good because that is about right as a maximum figure for most people.

In cases like this I alway point out that the EPA range number is actually 73 on 2012 and 75 on a 2013. The 102 number is just salesman BS. The 75 mile number is realistic for most people.

If the person in question is borderline on the 75 mile figure, I suggest they demo one overnight and use the car for a days worth of normal driving and see how they do on range. It is much better for the buyer to find their own comfort level, rather than you guessing what they really need.

EvaLeaf said:

someone who takes occasional trips of 50-60 miles each way on the weekends like my MIL?

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How about using QC at this trips?

DNAinaGoodWay said:

For an occasional 50-60 mile trip, even a 102 mile range isn't enough. I forget what the Rav4ev can do, but it might not be enough either.

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Rav4 can go 142 miles at 65mph at 3.4 miles/kWh, minus whatever power for hills and heater. Around town at 2.7miles/kWh will generate 113 miles.

Nissan, about time to consider offering few battery capacity options for Leaf.

The weight of the current battery pack limits the top end, which is what they are already selling. I don't think a smaller battery option would sell, and a larger one would require a major redesign of the chassis... So not sure there's much to be done practically with different battery options???

ljwobker said:

So not sure there's much to be done practically with different battery options???

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Aside from tweaking the chemistry and thereby improving the energy density, adding 6 kWh of capacity with current technology would add less weight than an average passenger did. In terms of storage, perhaps the modules could be packed a bit more tightly. There was talk of putting some modules in the trunk as well.

surfingslovak said:

There was talk of putting some modules in the trunk as well.

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How many modules would fit where the OBC used to be?

There is a lot of room in the trunk - enough room to fit a spare tire under the car - and if one is willing to compromise trunk space even more room. Though personally I'd rather keep the modules between where the OBC used to be and lower the trunk floor even more for more storage.

^^^
Yeah, I do wish Nissan would offer a larger capacity by putting some modules where the OBC was and putting some in the trunk area. Just don't eat up so much space that the trunk becomes the size of the FFE's.

In all normal situations, round trips of 80 to 120 miles
in the LEAF will require substantial charging during the trip.

Just wanted to post an update: My in-laws decided to go with the Ford C-Max Energi. I actually don't know much about this car, but my impression is its Ford's version of the Plug in Prius. So far they say they love it, and it sounds like it will meet the majority of their around-town needs on electricity, while still letting them have the ICE flexibility for longer trips. I will have to check it out the next time we are down in SD visiting them.

Thanks everyone for your input!

There is the volt of coarse

Anyway the low hanging fruit is NOT batteries, its aero and weight, those concepts are mature well understood concepts, getting 25 additional highway miles on the leaf is as simple as that.