IS THIS NORMAL FOR A LEAF?

surfingslovak said:

ELROY said:

I am still wondering if there might be something wrong with my battery. It's just something I suspected from the day I picked up the car.

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ELROY, the numbers you posted look perfectly reasonable. If you are still concerned about the battery, is there a chance that you could put a Gid meter to your LEAF? The recharge from VLBW to full should take somewhere between 6:45 and 7:00 hours. It's a hair over 7 hours from turtle to full on a new car, I believe.

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I wish I had a GID meter! I'm curious as to how long it is going to take to charge tonight. I usually charge from midnight-, because of my Super Off Peak Time being 12am-6am. Tonight we are supposed to set our clocks ahead 1 hr. I already set the dash clock 1hr ahead, but not the one on the NAV screen. Is the NAV screen time updated automatically through CARWINGS? I'm really curious as to whether the charging is going to start at what used to be 12am, even though it will technically suddenly be 1am. Which means I can't get the full 100% charge within 5hrs of time. Perhaps I will just go outside and push the timer override.

ELROY said:

I wish I had a GID meter! I'm curious as to how long it is going to take to charge tonight. I usually charge from midnight-, because of my Super Off Peak Time being 12am-6am. Tonight we are supposed to set our clocks ahead 1 hr. I already set the dash clock 1hr ahead, but not the one on the NAV screen. Is the NAV screen time updated automatically through CARWINGS? I'm really curious as to whether the charging is going to start at what used to be 12am, even though it will technically suddenly be 1am. Which means I can't get the full 100% charge within 5hrs of time. Perhaps I will just go outside and push the timer override.

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None of the clocks will update automatically, unfortunately. Perhaps they changed that in the 2013, but it's a manual process in 2011 and 2012 LEAFs. I concur with your timer override plan, sounds like the right thing to do given the circumstances. Is there a chance that your could link up with the SoCal group Gary organizes? It's 86 miles from Oxnard to Cypress, and a quick charger should be available there.

ELROY said:

I wish I had a GID meter!

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From looking at one of your earlier posts, it looks like you're in So Cal. Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side) so that it's easy for people to find/know?

I'd imagine there's someone in your area who could loan you one.

cwerdna said:

ELROY said:

I wish I had a GID meter!

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From looking at one of your earlier posts, it looks like you're in So Cal. Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side) so that it's easy for people to find/know?

I'd imagine there's someone in your area who could loan you one.

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Updated my profile. Location: Camarillo, California.


FYI: I sat in the car and waited, the timer turned it on at 12:00am. I pressed the timer override button and turned on, off the ignition. Still says the timer is on (per dash display). I turned off the timer in the Nav Display. Car still seemed to be charging. I supposed once it is charging, you have to unplug and plug it back in again?

Yes, once a charging session is underway, can't do much to change its parameters. It looks like you could chance a trip to Santa Ana from Camarillo, and attend a regular SoCal LEAF meetup. They hold an Open EVSE workshop up in Cypress regularly, which should be well within your driving range. It's a good and very knowledge group. "Gids" are named after the meeting organizer BTW ;-)

surfingslovak said:

Yes, once a charging session is underway, can't do much to change its parameters. It looks like you could chance a trip to Santa Ana from Camarillo, and attend a regular SoCal LEAF meetup. They hold an Open EVSE workshop up in Cypress regularly, which should be well within your driving range. It's a good and very knowledge group. "Gids" are named after the meeting organizer BTW ;-)

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Sounds like fun. I think the maximum distance I can go on the freeway is right about 60 miles. I can make it to Staples Center from Camarillo.

I have been trying to figure out a way to get a solar system underway as cheap as possible. I mean, for a 8KW system and $5-$7 watt installed in SoCal, that could be $40,000 + which doesn't make sense at all. I see panels on Ebay for a 7.9KW system for about .88 cents/watt.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-99KW-Sharp-235W-Mono-Solar-Panel-NU-U235F9-BX-60-Mono-Solar-Cell-Panel-/170908722559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

Isn't there a way to charge the LEAF without an expensive battery array or grid tie system? Once you Grid Tie, you have to have certified electricians install it, with permits, etc....and expensive labor! I'm thinking about finding out what it takes to be a certified electrical contractor. I used to be a Certified BMW technician specializing in electronics, so I have decent background experience.

^^^
I'm not even a novice when it comes to solar options, but you don't have to buy. There are other methods such as leasing and power purchase agreement (PPA). I've always known of SolarCity (Elon Musk's company) for leasing. I've seen http://www.recsolar.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; guys at Costco and spoken to them briefly.

Some people have the attitude that they want to have the biggest array they can so that their net usage is near 0 or even negative. Others only want to keep themselves out of the higher electric tiers. At least that's what the REC Solar guys have recommended, to keep costs down.

My situation is goofy and my usage is pretty low. for now. When I mentioned to the REC Solar guy that I'm usually within Tier 1 and only go into Tier 2 in winter months (this is w/PG&E's joke baselines), he looked very surprised. Essentially he said to me that it wouldn't even make sense until I started getting into Tier 3 (which a BEV could push me into).

You need more than just panels. You also need an inverter + other parts.

I'm sure that are folks here that know WAY more than I do.

surfingslovak said:

ELROY said:

I am still wondering if there might be something wrong with my battery. It's just something I suspected from the day I picked up the car.

Click to expand...

ELROY, the numbers you posted look perfectly reasonable. If you are still concerned about the battery, is there a chance that you could put a Gid meter to your LEAF? The recharge from VLBW to full should take somewhere between 6:45 and 7:00 hours. It's a hair over 7 hours from turtle to full on a new car, I believe.

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Okay so the car took 6hrs, 7minutes to charge. Compared to 7hrs this is about 53 minutes short...or a little over 12%.
And compared to the EPA estimate...that would mean about 9 miles short of 73miles with their type of m/kWh usage.
Is barely over 6hrs charge time from VLBW-100% unusually low for a LEAF barely over 4 months old and under 4000 miles? Sounds like I really need a GID meter.

Yes, it sounds a bit short. On the other hand, it fit neatly into the Super Off Peak Time The battery could be legitimately down a bit in terms of capacity. Would you know what the date of manufacture was? It's explained in Tom Saxton's battery survey. I think that it would be helpful to know the number of kWh it took to recharge, going by the time alone will not be as accurate. The pre-paid power purchase agreement from Solar City could be a very reasonably priced option, just like cwerdna said. I know several people that went with this option. Self-installation is a possibility, the only challenge there could be permitting. It's probably worth asking your municipality and the local utility what the requirements were. There were several solar-reled threads here and a number of knowledgeable folks. It's a good place to ask related questions.

surfingslovak said:

ELROY said:

Is the NAV screen time updated automatically through CARWINGS? I'm really curious as to whether the charging is going to start at what used to be 12am, even though it will technically suddenly be 1am.

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None of the clocks will update automatically, unfortunately. Perhaps they changed that in the 2013, but it's a manual process in 2011 and 2012 LEAFs.

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That's correct, but I have two caveats:

• The time to the nearest minute is maintained automatically on the console clock. It's just that the GMT offset is not changed for Daylight Savings Time. I find the option rather confusing.
  Menu -> Settings -> Others -> Clock -> Daylight Savings Time On/Off
  My initial assumption was that it should be On if DST was used in your area, Off otherwise. WRONG! It needs to be On during the DST part of the year and Off during the standard part of the year. So, yes, you need to change it twice a year.
• I don't know about your meter and service provider (is it LA DWP?), but up here in PG&E land most TOU meters are not smart meters, and apparently are stuck with the old DST schedule. So the time that your super off peak time starts and ends may shift at a different date from the current DST dates. You may want to leave your console time at DST Off until the utility time changes (probably 2AM March 31) if that applies to you.

Ray

So I am still kind of concerned that I can only reasonably expect 45-50 miles of driving before I hit the VLBW on an 80% charge.

I decided to do another reference test last night. I charged it to 100% and kept driving till I reached the Turtle Mode for the first time ever.
Results were as follows:

100% Charge
Tire Pressures: 48PSI
50-60F test temps (Always 5 battery bars)
Terrain: 160FT, fairly level driving. 60% city/40% highway.
No Heater...only a few minutes of A/C operation.

54.6 miles low battery warning



63.5 Miles Very low battery warning (approx)

67.5 miles Turtle Mode




3.5 m/kWh avg test economy

indicated dash charge time required:
25:00 hrs at 120v
07:30 hrs at 240v



Actual Charge Time:
6hrs 37 minutes
(6.61 hrs)

Car is 4 1/2 months old and has 3841 Miles on it.
Is being able to drive 40-50 miles on 80% charge about all I can expect? (without driving with a feather foot as I did in my initial test results)

My main objective here is to determine whether or not I have a valid complaint to Nissan for low range for such a new car?

According to the range chart (Tony Williams). at 3.5 miles/kWh, I should have achieved about 73 miles perhaps. (till turtle).
And then may subtract another 3-4 miles for the 50-60F temps. So that would put me within a few miles of what I achieved.
And then 6.61hrs x 3.3kWh=21.78kWh approx into the battery. Is this correct, and right on the money on predictions for a new LEAF?

ELROY said:

indicated dash charge time required:
25:00 hrs at 120v
07:30 hrs at 240v

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Just a quick comment: this exactly what we would expect from a new LEAF, and would imply 271 Gids on a full charge (or better). It's well understood and documented that the charging time display can drift and the displayed time can often have a 2 hours offset. That's in addtion to being inaccurate in terms of how long it actually will take to charge the vehicle. That said, assuming that the readout is accurate and the gauge did not have a drift, this bodes well for your LEAF.

surfingslovak said:

That said, assuming that the readout is accurate and the gauge did not have a drift, this bodes well for your LEAF.

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In other words - at 3.5 mi/kWh, the range ELROY got is entirely expected on a fairly new LEAF. Need to improve the mi/kWh to get better range - slow down on the freeway! Going faster than 65 mph really hurts the range, so avoid it when you know you need the range. 3.5 mi/kWh is pretty low for southern California unless you are doing a lot of high speed driving.

drees said:

surfingslovak said:

That said, assuming that the readout is accurate and the gauge did not have a drift, this bodes well for your LEAF.

Click to expand...

In other words - at 3.5 mi/kWh, the range ELROY got is entirely expected on a fairly new LEAF. Need to improve the mi/kWh to get better range - slow down on the freeway! Going faster than 65 mph really hurts the range, so avoid it when you know you need the range. 3.5 mi/kWh is pretty low for southern California unless you are doing a lot of high speed driving.

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+1 Even at 65mph you should easily get 4.0 on level terrain.

surfingslovak said:

ELROY said:

indicated dash charge time required:
25:00 hrs at 120v
07:30 hrs at 240v

Click to expand...

Just a quick comment: this exactly what we would expect from a new LEAF, and would imply 271 Gids on a full charge (or better). It's well understood and documented that the charging time display can drift and the displayed time can often have a 2 hours offset. That's in addtion to being inaccurate in terms of how long it actually will take to charge the vehicle. That said, assuming that the readout is accurate and the gauge did not have a drift, this bodes well for your LEAF.

Click to expand...

Is the fact that it only took 6.6hrs to charge instead of the 7.5hrs reason for concern of diminished battery capacity?
And it is probably true the charging tapers off making it even more likely that battery isn't taking a full charge. How long is it taking other owners to charge from turtle? Isn't is usually over 7hrs?

ELROY said:

Is the fact that it only took 6.6hrs to charge instead of the 7.5hrs reason for concern of diminished battery capacity?
And it is probably true the charging tapers off making it even more likely that battery isn't taking a full charge. How long is it taking other owners to charge from turtle? Isn't is usually over 7hrs?

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No, all completely normal.

It usually takes up to 1.5 hours to charge from 80% to 100% and the LEAF will take about 4.5 kWh during that time. So 6.6-1.5 = 5.1 hours at full rate which is typically 3.8 kW for a total of 19.4 kWh. Add in the 4.5 kWh for 80-100% and you get 23.9 kWh which is just about what you'd expect for a 5 month old LEAF in southern California.

drees said:

ELROY said:

Is the fact that it only took 6.6hrs to charge instead of the 7.5hrs reason for concern of diminished battery capacity?
And it is probably true the charging tapers off making it even more likely that battery isn't taking a full charge. How long is it taking other owners to charge from turtle? Isn't is usually over 7hrs?

Click to expand...

No, all completely normal.

It usually takes up to 1.5 hours to charge from 80% to 100% and the LEAF will take about 4.5 kWh during that time. So 6.6-1.5 = 5.1 hours at full rate which is typically 3.8 kW for a total of 19.4 kWh. Add in the 4.5 kWh for 80-100% and you get 23.9 kWh which is just about what you'd expect for a 5 month old LEAF in southern California.

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Of that 3.8kWh that goes into the charger, I believe only about 3.3kWh makes it to the battery. Besides, I don't think 23.9kWh would be accessible from our battery anyways? What is the capacity supposed to be on our batteries from full to turtle? In a new LEAF. Isn't it supposed to be around 22kWh?

ELROY said:

drees said:

ELROY said:

Is the fact that it only took 6.6hrs to charge instead of the 7.5hrs reason for concern of diminished battery capacity?
And it is probably true the charging tapers off making it even more likely that battery isn't taking a full charge. How long is it taking other owners to charge from turtle? Isn't is usually over 7hrs?

Click to expand...

No, all completely normal.

It usually takes up to 1.5 hours to charge from 80% to 100% and the LEAF will take about 4.5 kWh during that time. So 6.6-1.5 = 5.1 hours at full rate which is typically 3.8 kW for a total of 19.4 kWh. Add in the 4.5 kWh for 80-100% and you get 23.9 kWh which is just about what you'd expect for a 5 month old LEAF in southern California.

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Of that 3.8kWh that goes into the charger, I believe only about 3.3kWh makes it to the battery. Besides, I don't think 23.9kWh would be accessible from our battery anyways? What is the capacity supposed to be on our batteries from full to turtle? In a new LEAF. Isn't it supposed to be around 22kWh?

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I think this slide from NREL, which drees unearthed last year, sums it up really well. They have a properly instrumented lab, which we lack.

The rough efficiencies I'd use are:

charger: 92%
battery: 97%
drivetrain: 95%

Note that there is heat development in the battery both during charge and discharge, which will burn extra energy both ways. Applying these values, we get about 85% efficiency from the wall to the drivetrain, and about 80% wall-to-wheels. Keep in mind that approximately 0.5 kWh remains inaccessible in the battery when the contractor opens after turtle mode.

So even considering a 20% inefficiency, the EPA rates the range at 73 miles with a 2.9mi/kWh efficiency. With my 3.5 mi/kWh efficiency on this test, wouldn't it be at least eqaul to the EPA's 2.9 rating with 73 mile range? I know I'm not converting these exactly like the chart, but just giving it a general 20% inefficiency comparing the LEAF dash number to the EPA. I think I am being generous, (considering the LEAF dash number is not likely considering wall-wheel numbers), and I should at least get the 73 miles till turtle one would think.

If not, what is the equivalent of the EPA 2.9 mi/kWh to the LEAF cluster readout?

And again, if .5kWH in the battery is inaccessible. That should leave me with at least 23kWh of usable battery to turtle.

6.6hrs x 3.3kWh=21.78kWh of charge accepted into the battery. Perhaps I am missing about 1.2kWh of battery capacity, or about 5%?

ELROY said:

So even considering a 20% inefficiency, the EPA rates the range at 73 miles with a 2.9mi/kWh efficiency. With my 3.5 mi/kWh efficiency on this test, wouldn't it be at least eqaul to the EPA's 2.9 rating with 73 mile range?

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That's relevant, of course. The 2.9 m/kWh is wall-to-wheels efficiency, and I would expect to see something around 3.4 or 3.5 on the dash. So, yes, it should be comparable, even though it's an estimate. We don't have any accurate numbers to compare. It would be good to get the energy consumed in kWh from the wall, which should be the most relevant piece of data, aside from the distance covered.

ELROY said:

That should leave me with at least 23kWh of usable battery to turtle.

6.6hrs x 3.3kWh=21.78kWh of charge accepted into the battery. Perhaps I am missing about 1.2kWh of battery capacity, or about 5%?

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Sorry, I didn't catch this until now. Phil (aka Ingineer) confirmed that the battery is charged to about 95% of its rated capacity. While this yields 22.8 kWh, if you use the Gid count, it's a bit less: 281 x 80 Wh = 22.48 kWh. If we use 0.97% battery efficiency from the NREL report, this will yield about 21 kW out of the pack: 22.48 x 0.97 - 0.39 kWh = 21.42 kWh.

Note that the 0.39 kWh is based on 5 Gids remaining in the battery after turtle: 5 x 80 Wh x 0.97 = 388 Wh.

I think I can empathize with your point of view. When I was a new LEAF owner, I even called Customer Support and complained that my battery pack must be missing some capacity. This was based on the advertised rated figure of 24 kWh, of course.