AndyH
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Re: In Defense of Carbon Dioxide

Sun May 12, 2013 2:34 pm

RegGuheert wrote:While the WSJ article did a poor job in it's attempts to disprove the dangers of carbon dioxide it did point out some interesting benefits of increased carbon dioxide concentrations.
The problem is, there aren't any benefits of increased atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations - unless one is looking forward to drilling for oil in the arctic, or has contracts to move the world's naval ports to higher ground...

Most plants will grow more total mass in a higher CO2 environment, for example, but the mass is in the stalk and not the seeds. In the real world, more CO2 means less productive harvests (10% lower seed yields for each 1°C increase), higher water demand (though in a world of more frequent flood/drought cycles), higher rates of weed growth, and reduced effectiveness of herbacides.

The "CO2 is plant food" crock has been debunked so many times already...

http://climatecrocks.com/2013/05/10/wal ... seriously/
http://www.climatecentral.org/library/f ... good_thing
The results of these experiments have shown that the crops do not thrive as well in this environment. Plants do need CO2, but they also need water, nitrogen, and other nutrients. Increase one of these without increasing the others and there’s a limit to how much the plants will benefit. Some do not grow much more at all. Others, like wheat, grow bigger but end up with less nitrogen. As a result, insects end up eating more to get the nitrogen they need. The nutritional value of food plants would be similarly reduced for other animals — including humans.


There's no silver lining here at all.
Last edited by AndyH on Sun May 12, 2013 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stoaty
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Re: In Defense of Carbon Dioxide

Sun May 12, 2013 2:42 pm

There is new paleoclimate data that suggests the climate may be even more sensitive to CO2 concentrations than previously thought:

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/0 ... 4f-warmer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No politics in the article, just science.
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RegGuheert
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Re: In Defense of Carbon Dioxide

Sun May 12, 2013 3:16 pm

AndyH wrote:Most plants will grow more total mass in a higher CO2 environment, for example, but the mass is in the stalk and not the seeds.
We grow most of our own food here and the lion's share of what we eat is NOT the seeds, but rather is mostly roots, leaves and stems.

The fact that the economic systems in our world have become dependent on a few monocrops from which we eat the seeds is another gigantic problem with must be addressed if we are to succeed.

Here is a video showing some of the results of growing plants in a high CO2 atmosphere (which greenhouses pay money to do!):


Note the improvements in the roots! (Although I will note that they did not report the production of the seeds, which is what is eaten on the chickpea plant.)

It seems that doubling CO2 concentration leads to a 25% to 100% increase in potato production.
Last edited by RegGuheert on Sun May 12, 2013 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In Defense of Carbon Dioxide

Sun May 12, 2013 3:20 pm

Even if some plants can benefit from a higher CO2 level in terms of their growth, if the elevated CO2 levels are causing alternating droughts and floods the yield isn't going to be very good. That's exactly what we saw in 2012:

http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/10/news/ec ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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RegGuheert
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Re: In Defense of Carbon Dioxide

Sun May 12, 2013 3:23 pm

Stoaty wrote:Even if some plants can benefit from a higher CO2 level in terms of their growth, if the elevated CO2 levels are causing alternating droughts and floods the yield isn't going to be very good. That's exactly what we saw in 2012:

http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/10/news/ec ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No argument, assuming there is a causal link between atmospheric CO2 levels and these weather effects (and I believe there is).
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Re: In Defense of Carbon Dioxide

Sun May 12, 2013 6:46 pm

thankyouOB wrote: not as funny as the Onion. but the journalism must be discounted even more than when only the editorial pages were written for and to the hamptons brunch crowd.

envy is so ugly
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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: In Defense of Carbon Dioxide

Sun May 12, 2013 7:04 pm

The world sent 38.2 billion tons of carbon dioxide into the air in 2011, according international calculations published in a scientific journal in December. China spews 10 billion tons of carbon dioxide into the air per year, leading all countries, and its emissions are growing about 10 percent annually. The U.S. at No. 2 is slowly cutting emissions and is down to 5.9 billion tons per year.
Sounds pretty hopeless we could cut to zero and it wouldn't make much difference. Does China see any value in solar energy beyond something else to sell?
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Re: In Defense of Carbon Dioxide

Sun May 12, 2013 7:24 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
The world sent 38.2 billion tons of carbon dioxide into the air in 2011, according international calculations published in a scientific journal in December. China spews 10 billion tons of carbon dioxide into the air per year, leading all countries, and its emissions are growing about 10 percent annually. The U.S. at No. 2 is slowly cutting emissions and is down to 5.9 billion tons per year.
Sounds pretty hopeless we could cut to zero and it wouldn't make much difference. Does China see any value in solar energy beyond something else to sell?
wasn't china exempted from that Kyoto treaty that dealt with CO2 emissions?
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AndyH
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Re: In Defense of Carbon Dioxide

Sun May 12, 2013 7:32 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
The world sent 38.2 billion tons of carbon dioxide into the air in 2011, according international calculations published in a scientific journal in December. China spews 10 billion tons of carbon dioxide into the air per year, leading all countries, and its emissions are growing about 10 percent annually. The U.S. at No. 2 is slowly cutting emissions and is down to 5.9 billion tons per year.
Sounds pretty hopeless we could cut to zero and it wouldn't make much difference. Does China see any value in solar energy beyond something else to sell?
China, unlike the US, has an energy policy that includes efficiency, solar hot water, wind, and PV. It's somewhat telling that folks from RMI are in China helping them move ahead while their folks in the 'States are held to a much slower pace.

There's at least one segment from Design E2 that focuses on China:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/23336#i0,p4,d0

RMI has videos and papers on China's energy progress as well.
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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: In Defense of Carbon Dioxide

Sun May 12, 2013 7:59 pm

AndyH wrote: China, unlike the US, has an energy policy that includes efficiency, solar hot water, wind, and PV. It's somewhat telling that folks from RMI are in China helping them move ahead while their folks in the 'States are held to a much slower pace.
If China is so advanced in this regard why the disconnect in results?
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