Promoting Electric Vehicles Act of 2010

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evnow said:
Merged.

There is no problem getting higher subsidy for EVs. Both parties support it. Afterall many auto manufacturers are in south states and the senators from there will support it. No point imagining Republican opposition ... checkout the senate committee vote on this.

Also oil companies are fine with EV subsidies. They are supporting the legislation.

I hope you're correct on this.
 
http://www.statesmanjournal.com/article/20101016/NEWS/10160340/1001/PREPSSPORTS

Merkley's electric car bill in slow lane Senator's effort has some key Republican backing but isn't a priority for lame-duck Congress

Electric vehicles have offered a rare patch of common ground for Republicans and Democrats this year. Tennessee Republican Sen. Lamar Alexander co-sponsored the original Electric Vehicle Deployment Act with Merkley and Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D. The bill passed the Senate's energy committee with a bipartisan 19-4 vote in July. And a few weeks later, McConnell said Republicans could work with the White House on electric vehicle development.
 
EVDRIVER said:
So when could this increase take effect? For 2011 purchases only perhaps?

The current bill on the senate floor proposed by Reid doesn't have these provisions. Reid is a CNG backer, not as much an EV backer. So it all depends on how vigorously auto majors and senators lobby to include these provisions in the Reid Energy bill. If that passes without these provisions, it will be a while before the senate will take up these again ...
 
Its nice to see common ground. I can't think of anyone that actually enjoys paying $5.00 for a gallon of gas and then have that money go to people that want to destroy America. I would imagine that if they did increase the incentive it would be for EV's bought after "such and such a date". Its really nice to see money being invested in freeing Americans from arab oil. Go Team USA!!! :!:
 
JPVLeaf said:
sjfotos said:
Let's not get too flame ridden here. Just remember that whatever your differences are, there are a ton of Chinese happy to see you exacerbate them.
Could you explain the Chinese references? I'm not quite getting them.


The ruling members of the People's Republic of China are more than happy to see intramural disputes tie up American resources and time. Time devoted to these political topics, with huge doses of acrimony, is a net productivity drag on their major rival.
 
sjfotos said:
JPVLeaf said:
sjfotos said:
Let's not get too flame ridden here. Just remember that whatever your differences are, there are a ton of Chinese happy to see you exacerbate them.
Could you explain the Chinese references? I'm not quite getting them.


The ruling members of the People's Republic of China are more than happy to see intramural disputes tie up American resources and time. Time devoted to these political topics, with huge doses of acrimony, is a net productivity drag on their major rival.

I'd believe that. We did the same thing to the Soviets with "Star Wars". Ronald Regan made them spend their way into an economic collapse. If someone turned the tables on us, (which I kinda think 'they' are doing) then it's our own damn fault.
 
TRONZ said:
Excuse me. Actually the CA Economy would have a surplus if we did not pay for the majority of "Red" states. :arrow: Simple Fact -76% of "Red" states SPEND more money than they collect in Federal Taxes! The worst "Red" state is North Dakota which spends $2.03 for each Federal tax dollar it collects, Mississippi spends $1.84, Alaska spends $1.82... it goes on and on... :!: CA only SPENDS .81 cents of each dollar it collect from us fine residents. The other .19 cents per dollar from the fifth largest economy in the world is then mostly given to "Tea Party States". I am thinking CA should stop doing this!!! Congratulations however, Oregon and Florida spend $1.00 for each dollar they collect. These two states are not exactly saving anything but also NOT asking CA for handouts.

I assume you are getting new numbers from somewhere, but this is the last list I could come up with:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.html

In general, we get it worse here in the NYC Metro area than in California. Much of the problem is the Senate. The Senate gives equal power to all states, regardless of population. Combined with rules that enable obstructionism, a lot of deals are cut with "conservative" senators from smaller states that are always more than happy with Federal spending when it goes to their state. Restricting the use of the filibuster would be a good first step.

If there was some way to pass a "state contribution budget balancing" rule that limits funding for new federal projects in states where they receive more in tax revenue than they pay, it would help all of us on the coasts. Even if you could just bring it up for debate and make red-states that get more than the pay have to defend themselves publically, it would potentially help populous states that pay more than they receive get funded...which is where the greatest potential for EV adoption is.
 
sjfotos said:
The ruling members of the People's Republic of China are more than happy to see intramural disputes tie up American resources and time. Time devoted to these political topics, with huge doses of acrimony, is a net productivity drag on their major rival.

I'd guess it is the perspective of an outsider - with no real insight into China politics. I'm sure China ruling members don't give a damn about political squabbles here. They don't even look at US as a rival except for resource consumption.
 
lne937s said:
I assume you are getting new numbers from somewhere, but this is the last list I could come up with:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.html

In general, we get it worse here in the NYC Metro area than in California.

Depends on how things are calculated. CA & NY tend to "contribute" a lot to federal kitty because a large number of companies are headquartered there. Ofcourse the companies get their money from all over the country.

Federal spening includes money to all the DOD bases - hardly handouts/subsidies to those states, even though it helps the local economy.

BTW, this has nothing to do with the topic. So I'll likely move the posts.

Otherwise - back to topic.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
as i figured, have to hope democrats retain control

It looks bad, both for the EV credit and for the EVSE credit despite the fact that Democrats, Republicans, environmentalists, and business all support it.

http://www.bnet.com/blog/electric-c...ely-to-kill-an-ev-subsidy-everyone-likes/2358
http://www.bnet.com/blog/electric-c...by-politics/2470?tag=content;drawer-container

I have no problem with Republicans being pro oil industry. It's no different than Democrats being pro wind and solar industries, and fair game to be settled at the ballot box. But I can't understand why so many self proclaimed patriots seem so keen for America to be in thrall to foreign countries, many of which hate us fervently.
 
Note that above article by Jim is talking about the 50% off EVSE. The 7.5K credit, AFAIK, doesn't need reauthorization.

But, the 7.5K can only be increased to 10K with a new bill, of course.
 
evnow said:
Note that above article by Jim is talking about the 50% off EVSE. The 7.5K credit, AFAIK, doesn't need reauthorization.

But, the 7.5K can only be increased to 10K with a new bill, of course.

Not that I'd mind getting another $2.5K, but I think that money would be better spent on charging infrastructure, battery R&D, wind turbine R&D, smart grid, V2G, etc. The current tax credit is enough to make Leaf "mainstream" and I don't think a little bit more would sway a lot more people to try EV early on. I believe that in the 2011 and 2012 model years, Leaf will be constrained by Nissan's production capacity, not by demand.

The crucial test for EV viability will be the success of those first 40,000 US customers of 2011/12 Leafs, and that gets back to the public infrastructure. People need to see their neighbors commuting in their Leafs, without anxiety. Then when Nissan can build 200,000 Leafs in the 2013 model year they can find buyers, as can Ford Fusion EV, GM Volt, and others. With that kind of volume, batteries may be driven down the cost curve towards Ghosn's target of 1M EV's per year, to be cost competitive with ICE without government subsidy. And with that kind of volume we could see lithium air or carbon nanotube batteries commercialized by2019 when we need to replace batteries in our Leafs, and get a 2X to 10X improvement on range and/or cost.

But if instead the public sees a lot of Leafs towed or trucked back to dealers for recharging, and late model Leafs sitting on used car lots at deep discount, then none of that is going to happen.
 
walterbays said:
Not that I'd mind getting another $2.5K, but I think that money would be better spent on charging infrastructure, battery R&D, wind turbine R&D, smart grid, V2G, etc. The current tax credit is enough to make Leaf "mainstream" and I don't think a little bit more would sway a lot more people to try EV early on.
Yes, I think the biggest thing the government can do is to install a lot of L3 infrastructure. As I've noted earlier - an L3 charger can be installed every 15 miles (225 sq miles) in entire US with less than $1B.
 
walterbays said:
evnow said:
Note that above article by Jim is talking about the 50% off EVSE. The 7.5K credit, AFAIK, doesn't need reauthorization.

But, the 7.5K can only be increased to 10K with a new bill, of course.

Not that I'd mind getting another $2.5K, but I think that money would be better spent on charging infrastructure, battery R&D, wind turbine R&D, smart grid, V2G, etc. The current tax credit is enough to make Leaf "mainstream" and I don't think a little bit more would sway a lot more people to try EV early on. I believe that in the 2011 and 2012 model years, Leaf will be constrained by Nissan's production capacity, not by demand.

The crucial test for EV viability will be the success of those first 40,000 US customers of 2011/12 Leafs, and that gets back to the public infrastructure. People need to see their neighbors commuting in their Leafs, without anxiety. Then when Nissan can build 200,000 Leafs in the 2013 model year they can find buyers, as can Ford Fusion EV, GM Volt, and others. With that kind of volume, batteries may be driven down the cost curve towards Ghosn's target of 1M EV's per year, to be cost competitive with ICE without government subsidy. And with that kind of volume we could see lithium air or carbon nanotube batteries commercialized by2019 when we need to replace batteries in our Leafs, and get a 2X to 10X improvement on range and/or cost.

But if instead the public sees a lot of Leafs towed or trucked back to dealers for recharging, and late model Leafs sitting on used car lots at deep discount, then none of that is going to happen.


agree with you 100% in that any money can always find a better use and your alternatives are wonderful options. but all this implies that we have hit or approached some sort of limit in support of EV technology. that i find difficult to accept

even if a tenfold increase in spending on the EV highway project was to be approved, it still pales in comparison to the massive support provided to the oil industry.

like i said, i agree with you 100% on alternative ways to promote EV growth, but not giving us a bigger discount is not one i can agree with. we simply need to allocate more to one energy solution, less to another
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
like i said, i agree with you 100% on alternative ways to promote EV growth, but not giving us a bigger discount is not one i can agree with. we simply need to allocate more to one energy solution, less to another

Okay, I'll agree 100% with you as well. But I don't think there's the political will in Washington to spend much on renewable energy. After the elections we could well see major scaling back of existing programs.

Now here's a scenario I am NOT hoping for, but which I fear is all too likely. Iran ignores sanctions and continues to develop nuclear missles. Just before they become operational, Israel knocks out all their enrichment and missle facilities, igniting a new Mideast war. The U.S. reluctantly supports Israel, and Arab regimes who detest Tehran nevertheless take Iran's side. The Strait of Hormuz is blocked, and the constriction of world oil supplies makes the 1973 oil embargo look like a picnic. Then there would suddenly be great political will to develop renewable energy and to promote an EV vehicle industry, with bitter recriminations blaming the administration for failing to prepare for the event - by the same congressmen who voted to end all renewable energy and EV programs a few months earlier.
 
that would be a bummer. now my dad is a die hard republican aggravated by the fact that he lives in Texas which makes him a die hard Bush fan. all he can talk about is how bad the democrats are doing, etc.

his latest email jaunt has him blaming the Democrats when they took over control of Congress on jan 3, 2007. he states that up until then, we had 52 straight months of expansion, jobs added, etc.

well, my contention is that Reagen is to blame. he ridiculed Jimmy Carters environmental and energy conversation plans even going so far as to tear the solar panels off the roof of the White House that Carter had installed.

so, in a nutshell; we are playing catch up. we have 30 years to make up and we aint gonna do it effectively if we sit on our ass and wait for some shining light to come down from the Heavens singing the praises of EV technology. the jump start that happened in California in the 90's created a groundswell of die hard support that flourishes to this day and we are not talking millions of people or even thousands. its only a few hundred but they are making an impact.

Nissan with their launch going nationwide FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER in the affordable EV market will cause a sensation that will go on for years, as long as they can execute

right now, most of the people that could easily drive an EV as one of their cars (primarily 2+ car households) will not even consider one because of that one time they will need more range. not until they see their neighbor managing the range issues just fine will they then realize that they really dont drive all that much after all.
 
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