So, owners what range are you getting ?

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TonyWilliams said:
GRA said:
... BC2BC will become practical and even routine for owners of the S and follow-ons, and the adventure will go away, at least for them. No one stays excited about being able to drone along on the interstate for hour after hour. And that's how it should be, if we want BEVs to become mainstream - unnoticed parts of the transportation background, with expected and unremarked capabilities.
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This "Debbie Downer" for BC2BC only comes from existing and former EV drivers who are typically the "old guard" of EV's. The general public (who this is supposed to appeal to) is actually quite excited overall, both last year and this year. We will get a lot of the great unwashed masses exposed to EV's, both through TV and print, and up-close-and-personal.

The "mainstream and unnoticed" current oil burning transportation devices with millions in use and 100,000 plus refueling stations still do all sorts of rallies, races, etc. Two and four wheel. Clearly, you would find no use for any of that, either. Check out the Iron Butt Rally*** if you want your head to explode, and yet we've have motorcycles for over 100 years. Guys pay $2000 to ride on public highways for 11 days and 11,000 miles. There's a waiting list.

When the Cannonball Rally started May 3, 1971, we had been successfully driving oil burning cars cross country for almost 70 years, when 1903, H. Nelson Jackson and Sewall K. Crocker completed the first motor trip across the United States in their oil burning car. Thankfully, folks with vision and adventure tend to just make things happen. Others sit around and complain.


*** The 2013 Iron Butt Rally will take off in early July 2013 from the Northeast. Once again, it will be a challenge not only to your riding skills but also your ability to map a successful route in order to maximize points and solve the time/distance equation. In no particular order, the checkpoints will be in the west the east and finish back in the Northeast. Exact locations, dates and times will be announced at a later date. Please note: the rally will start and finish at the same location.

As in 2005, 2007, and 2009 there will be a minimum number of points required in order to qualify as a finisher. In other words, it is possible that you will ride for 11 days, not obtain enough points and NOT qualify as a finisher. Important: There will not be the opportunity to be a checkpoint-to-checkpoint rider. If this finds you shaking in your boots, remember the Iron Butt Rally is for the World's Toughest Riders.

Positions are extremely limited and, unfortunately, not everyone who seeks to enter the rally will be able to find a spot. We wish we could accommodate more applicants, but unfortunately, we have limited facilities and staff to conduct the rally. The entry fee for the 2013 Iron Butt Rally will be $1,850 ($2150 two-up)(U.S.Funds) payable in two parts. If you are drawn for the rally (information on how to enter the drawing follows) to hold your position the initial deposit of $700 due January 15, 2012; and the remaining $1050 ($1350 two-up) fee due January 15, 2013.
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Tony, being as I'm the author of the lead quote, but by no means an old or former EV dude although I've driven them, I'm well aware of such things as the Cannonball Run and others; Hell, I did car rallies for years (my personal taste was for CM/Nav/Gimmick rallies rather than the touring variety). There will always be a small group of people who enjoy this sort of thing; it's an adventure, or a fun experience, and I'm happy that people can enjoy it. But it isn't a practical use of BEVs as they currently exist, which is what makes tours like BC2BC an adventure.

Just as almost no one cared after about 1930 about the coast-to-coast and coast-to-coast-to-coast driving records, the same will be true of long-distance BEV tours in a few years. That's not a downer at all, because it's exactly what tours like BC2BC are intended to produce; it means that BEVs will be mainstream. So enjoy it now, because the people who participate are in at the creation of a new technological system, before that system becomes routine and unnoticed instead of new and exciting. Which, as I said, is a good thing - we can always handicap ourselves in some way to create an adventure in the future, if the natural variety doesn't occur.
 
surfingslovak said:
GRA said:
The thing is, we already knew that slowing down (to as low as 12 mph) would boost the range; Tony provided that info in his range chart a long time ago. And we already knew that using hypermiling techniques would also boost the range. So what new information has LEAFfan generated (other than bragging rights), beyond the fact that he is willing to drive slowly for far longer than just about anyone, and/or that he's excellent at hypermiling (which we already knew)?
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Guy, yes, certainly. But let's not forget that there are folks that are a bit more stubborn about the 38 mph thing and claim that it's meaningless if you archieved 8 or 10 m/kWh over the course of 10 miles. To them, the overall most efficient speed is still 38 mph, because someone at Nissan said so, and nothing short of an official press release will convince them otherwise. In this case, it can be beneficial to go the distance and demostrate that a speed somewhere between 12 and 15 mph is indeed the best, despite parasitic and accessory loads. The end result speaks for itself: 188 miles. Try doing that at 38 mph. Without wanting to argue about it, to me, this is like guessometer numbers or the mythical 100 miles of range. Unless you go the distance, you won't be able to disprove some of these preconceived notions and beliefs. I agree that this is likely done out of a sense of passion for the technology and as an adventure. Personally, I see nothing wrong with that, but I would certainly not advocate that average consumers should engage in similar activities. I don't think that this is giving EVs a bad name. Remember the first airplanes? They held more promise than inherent practical value for the everyday person.
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I wasn't suggesting that LEAFfan's endurance run would give BEV's a bad name. Given the signs he had on the car, it was clear that it was being driven exceptionally slowly as part of an efficiency test. As far as the general public's impression of BEVs, I've been far more worried about people talking about using motorcycle jackets etc. in lieu of the heater, or crawling in the slow lane making the trucks pass them, just so they can get to their destinations. I think that sort of behavior has a much larger negative impact, which is why I'd rather undersell BEV range performance than oversell it (as my sig indicates). One negative owner or experience will influence far more people than 10 positive ones.
 
I'm getting around 115 miles per charge, which jives with what my miles per KWH are stated as (5.2 currently)

I ran my usual commute (26 miles) 3 times on a single charge, and still had 37 miles left on the charge.
 
With the traffic in this area, the best that I can get is around 70 miles per charge. In this area, there is no way I could drive at those super slow speeds without getting killed.

Although I wish my range was better, it is still nice that I don't have to pay today's gas prices. If I need more range, its back to a ICE car, or find a charging station and read a book.

Dave
 
Ah yes, great fun! I've down dozens if not hundreds of them over the years and also created a few myself... The three longest were four day rallyes from L.A. to northern California mystery designations...

GRA said:
I did car rallies for years (my personal taste was for CM/Nav/Gimmick rallies rather than the touring variety).
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wishboneash said:
cwerdna said:
wishboneash said:
I can safely say that I haven't seen battery degradation in ~25,000 miles.
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Not surprising as you live an ideal climate in terms of battery degradation. It almost never gets hot up there compared to places like south San Jose, Walnut Creek or Concord.
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I live in the East Bay (Pleasanton) of the SF Bay area. A bit hotter in summer and bit cooler in winter than the San Jose and South Bay. Similar to Concord/Walnut Creek temperatures.
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Today was an illustration of the extreme variance in temps in the Bay Area, probably more so than usual for summer... err spring.

It was pretty darn hot in my part of SJ. News said the city of SJ was 95, but my part gets hotter, I wouldn't be surprised if it got to 97 or 99. Anyhow, today it was 111 F in Dublin, 107 in Livermore, 105 in Walnut Creek but only 62 (!!!) in SF and 67 in Santa Cruz. Other temps for the day: Pacifica at 69, Half Moon Bay at 61 and Bodega Bay at 60.

No wonder traffic was jammed on 17 south this afternoon, as it tends to be on hot weekends. People wanted to go to the beach down there, I guess.
 
cwerdna said:
It was pretty darn hot in my part of SJ. News said the city of SJ was 95, but my part gets hotter, I wouldn't be surprised if it got to 97 or 99. Anyhow, today it was 111 F in Dublin, 107 in Livermore, 105 in Walnut Creek but only 62 (!!!) in SF and 67 in Santa Cruz. Other temps for the day: Pacifica at 69, Half Moon Bay at 61 and Bodega Bay at 60.
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Wow! 51F difference in high temperature! I had no idea there was that much variation. Thanks!
 
RegGuheert said:
cwerdna said:
It was pretty darn hot in my part of SJ. News said the city of SJ was 95, but my part gets hotter, I wouldn't be surprised if it got to 97 or 99. Anyhow, today it was 111 F in Dublin, 107 in Livermore, 105 in Walnut Creek but only 62 (!!!) in SF and 67 in Santa Cruz. Other temps for the day: Pacifica at 69, Half Moon Bay at 61 and Bodega Bay at 60.
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Wow! 51F difference in high temperature! I had no idea there was that much variation. Thanks!
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It can be 20 degree difference just within SF
 
johnqh said:
RegGuheert said:
cwerdna said:
It was pretty darn hot in my part of SJ. News said the city of SJ was 95, but my part gets hotter, I wouldn't be surprised if it got to 97 or 99. Anyhow, today it was 111 F in Dublin, 107 in Livermore, 105 in Walnut Creek but only 62 (!!!) in SF and 67 in Santa Cruz. Other temps for the day: Pacifica at 69, Half Moon Bay at 61 and Bodega Bay at 60.
Click to expand...
Wow! 51F difference in high temperature! I had no idea there was that much variation. Thanks!
Click to expand...
It can be 20 degree difference just within SF
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Yup, the Bay Area is a land of microclimates. I've got a friend in a two-car family for whom a BEV would make sense as a local car, but who needs something like his Volvo Wagon for numerous trips to the Sierra with gear. He lives in Lafayette which has summer temps similar to Walnut Creek, so I'm hesitant about recommending a Leaf for him (or more likely his wife), even as a lease.

From where they are, traveling pretty much anywhere in the Bay Area involves a fair amount of freeway driving at near the max. round-trip range of current cars. I'm not sure that with a two-year lease we'd see improved batteries arrive in time, so I lean towards recommending a three-year term, but I also recommend a BEV with ATM for his climate, and the lack of either QC or 6.6kW charging on the cars that have it causes a bit of a dilemma.
 
I didn't manage to read every post in this topic, but after about 400 miles I'm averaging 4.1 miles per kWH, and that's using the A/C and even the heat in my 2013 SV. I commute using two routes usually: to get into work quickly with some traffic on the roads I take a slightly longer mostly-highway route that has me climb up out of a valley and then zoom back down into it, much of it at 60MPH. Going home, I follow the flat river route that is most direct, but also has lots of 30MPH zones and lots of traffic lights. It's not bad at night when I'm retuning home in the wee hours, though, and it's much better for range. Using the Leaf instead of our Prius has me taking the slower route *in* to work as well more often, because I want to squeeze those electrons like a miser squeezing a penny. I never use the "Normal" mode, and this leads me to suggest:

Why not rename the "Eco" mode the "Normal" mode, and, by pressing the same button, activate "Sport" mode? (Or, if you want to be retro, "Turbo"!) The car clearly has enough power for 90+% of driving in Eco, and those driving in Normal are going to find their range is far less than advertised. I think Nissan overestimated the importance of 0-60 times, and underestimated the value of actually at least approaching their advertised range numbers.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Why not rename the "Eco" mode the "Normal" mode, and, by pressing the same button, activate "Sport" mode? (Or, if you want to be retro, "Turbo"!) The car clearly has enough power for 90+% of driving in Eco, and those driving in Normal are going to find their range is far less than advertised. I think Nissan overestimated the importance of 0-60 times, and underestimated the value of actually at least approaching their advertised range numbers.
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Despite being an "eco-nut" myself, I like your suggestion of renaming the modes as "Normal" and "Sport". However, I don't buy your explanations.
  • The car has exactly as much power in Eco as non-Eco. You just have to push the accelerator farther down to get it.
  • Apart from the known fact that Eco limits energy diverted to climate control, I don't think there is general agreement on this board that using it will increase range. The additional go-pedal regen can either improve your mileage or make it worse depending on how you use it.

Ray
 
dm33 said:
planet4ever said:
The additional go-pedal regen can either improve your mileage or make it worse depending on how you use it.
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How can regen make your mileage worse?
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Regen (and taking energy from the battery) involves losses such as from conversion and resistance in everything in the chain (wiring, motor windings, inverter, etc.).
 
Yes, coasting has been found to be more effective than regen in the EV scooter/bicycle world, and when trying for best range in EV cars - when it can be used effectively. But with cars in typical driving situations you get fewer opportunities to coast and more situations in which moderate regen works very well - and saves on brake wear as an added bonus. If you get the chance to hypermile, use Normal mode. If you're driving in traffic Eco is the better bet.

Eco gives you the same power at full throttle? Are you sure? If so I'm a bit let down - my 2013 isn't all that impressive (except as an electric vehicle in power-saving mode) at WFO throttle. While they're implementing my earlier suggestion, then, I want them to remove the torque reduction from the 2013 and beyond models, so in "Sport" we get to at least trounce Priuses going uphill. ;-)


Before I get trash talk from Prius owners, we lease one of those, too. I also drive that in ECO (I never liked ice cold A/C anyway) all the time.
 
^^^
Yeah, there's the so-called hybrid paradox that Prius folks coined. Taking energy out of or putting energy into the battery causes you to incur losses. So, the paradox is that even though you have the battery, you want to minimize its use.

For max mileage on a Gen 2 Prius, you want to dead band and stay below ~41 mph (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1224" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). It's what enabled the guys at http://web.archive.org/web/20090226062953/http://post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to achieve ~110 mpg (1397 miles on a tank of gas).
 
dm33 said:
planet4ever said:
The additional go-pedal regen can either improve your mileage or make it worse depending on how you use it.
Click to expand...
How can regen make your mileage worse?
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cwerdna really said it already, but I think of it this way:

Regen converts kinetic energy --> AC electric energy --> DC electric energy --> chemical energy --> DC electric energy --> AC electric energy --> kinetic energy.

None of those steps is 100% efficient. Yes, certainly, regen is more efficient than friction braking, which of course is 0% efficient. But, as LeftieBiker said, regen is less efficient than coasting (with the possible exception of coasting that causes you to accelerate to very high speeds). In general you get the highest efficiency when slowing down by using the minimum feasible deceleration. If taking your foot off the accelerator in Eco causes you to slow more quickly than necessary, then Eco has hurt your mileage. Even if you have to touch the brake lightly in non-Eco to get the necessary slowing, that will be more efficient, because a light touch on the brake will not cause friction braking; instead it increases the amount of regen you get. On the other hand, keeping your foot on the accelerator in Eco, and modulating the pressure for minimum feasibly deceleration will also maximize efficiency.

So the answer is as I said, "depending on how you use it." People used to driving automatic gas cars will tend to slow by using a light pressure on the brake, and until they learn new behaviors they may well get better performance by avoiding Eco. Those of us still around who grew up on stick shifts, and those who have raced cars, know how to down-shift and control our speed with the gas pedal. We might get better better performance in Eco.

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
dm33 said:
planet4ever said:
The additional go-pedal regen can either improve your mileage or make it worse depending on how you use it.
Click to expand...
How can regen make your mileage worse?
Click to expand...
cwerdna really said it already, but I think of it this way:

Regen converts kinetic energy --> AC electric energy --> DC electric energy --> chemical energy --> DC electric energy --> AC electric energy --> kinetic energy.

None of those steps is 100% efficient. Yes, certainly, regen is more efficient than friction braking, which of course is 0% efficient. But, as LeftieBiker said, regen is less efficient than coasting (with the possible exception of coasting that causes you to accelerate to very high speeds). In general you get the highest efficiency when slowing down by using the minimum feasible deceleration. If taking your foot off the accelerator in Eco causes you to slow more quickly than necessary, then Eco has hurt your mileage. Even if you have to touch the brake lightly in non-Eco to get the necessary slowing, that will be more efficient, because a light touch on the brake will not cause friction braking; instead it increases the amount of regen you get. On the other hand, keeping your foot on the accelerator in Eco, and modulating the pressure for minimum feasibly deceleration will also maximize efficiency.

So the answer is as I said, "depending on how you use it." People used to driving automatic gas cars will tend to slow by using a light pressure on the brake, and until they learn new behaviors they may well get better performance by avoiding Eco. Those of us still around who grew up on stick shifts, and those who have raced cars, know how to down-shift and control our speed with the gas pedal. We might get better better performance in Eco.

Ray
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You can control how much regen you get in Eco, just by putting a little pressure on the "gas" pedal. You can simulate Normal mode and coast that way, or, with just a little pressure, reduce the regen to as little as one "Dot." (What are they calling those increments, anyway?)
 
LeftieBiker said:
You can control how much regen you get in Eco, just by putting a little pressure on the "gas" pedal. You can simulate Normal mode and coast that way, or, with just a little pressure, reduce the regen to as little as one "Dot." (What are they calling those increments, anyway?)
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While it doesn't apply to the S model, for SV and SL models using the energy screen gives much better information about energy in/out of the battery than the "dots". And there are several aftermarket meters that display energy levels in and out of the battery. If one doesn't have or want to use either of those, using the dots as a guide is better than nothing.

As Ray said above, for some new LEAF drivers there is a learning curve for how to manage coasting and regen using the "A pedal" (as well as shifting to neutral to coast, where practical), versus just releasing the A pedal and using the "B pedal" to slow. The mapping of power on the A pedal in Eco makes it easier to drive efficiently for those who care to learn to do so. My impression is that nearly all hypermilers use Eco.
 
As a stick shift driver, I like the way regen is handled on the 3rd gen. Smart ED, although according to Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield's review we're apparently not going to get the paddles here:

"What makes the Smart ForTwo stand out however, is the use of paddle-shifters mounted on the steering wheel to control the amount of regeneration. By clicking the left paddle-shifter and engaging D- mode, it’s possible to completely turn off regenerative braking on accelerator liftoff, giving it the same coasting functionality as GM’s famous EV1. A click to the right engages the standard D mode, which gives mild regeneration on launch. Click the right paddle shift one more time, and D+ mode is engaged. In this mode, it’s regenerative braking as severe as that found in cars like the Mini E and Tesla Roadster, making ‘one pedal driving’ possible. It also gives the Smart ForTwo ED a really sporty feel, especially on twisty country roads."

Full review at http://www.plugincars.com/2013-smart-fortwo-proves-good-things-come-small-packages-127447.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
While it doesn't apply to the S model, for SV and SL models using the energy screen gives much better information about energy in/out of the battery than the "dots". And there are several aftermarket meters that display energy levels in and out of the battery. If one doesn't have or want to use either of those, using the dots as a guide is better than nothing.
Click to expand...

I have those features, but I prefer to keep my eyes on the road, not on the dash. (This is one of the things that makes the standard Prius a PITA to drive efficiently - that hair-trigger point at which the ICE comes on, and which you have to watch a gauge to avoid.) The dots are quite adequate for determining both traction motor power and regen strength, and you need only glance at them briefly, or use your peripheral vision on them.

Oh, and someone mentioned the "A pedal" and the "B pedal". No freaking way! I had a Nintendo 64 and have an Xbox 360 now, but there's no way I'm going to name the pedals in my car after video game buttons. If it has to be simple enough for kids and the elderly to remember, I suggest the "Go" and "Slow" pedals. ;-)
 

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